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| Dreamflower's Musings by Dreamflower | 9 Review(s) |
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| KathyG | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 10/7/2020 |
| Here's another plot bunny regarding Bilbo. We know he cared about his employees, and we know that he taught Sam his letters and told Sam stories about Elves. Since as an adult, Sam knew a poem about oliphaunts, I'm guessing that it was Bilbo who assigned him that lesson when he was a child. What brought about Bilbo's decision to teach Sam to read and write? What did Sam's lessons consist of? Did Bilbo wait until Frodo was living with him before he started to teach Sam, and did he give Sam his lessons separately? How did Bilbo relate to the rest of Sam's family? | |
| Queen Galadriel | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 4/29/2009 |
| Yes, Tolkien definitely played an instrumental role in creating the modern epic fantasy with those two stories, and Bilbo's own tale is too often discounted as a children's book. I hope this inspires someone, I'd love to see some of these too! | |
| Virtuella | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 11/29/2008 |
| Just pasting my MEFA review: What a very interesting essay! You’ll know by now that I’m always looking for what you call the “story-external” and what I call the “structural” issues, and I was surprised at what you unearthed here in the way of similarities between The Hobbit and LOTR. Coming to think of it, there are also similarities in themes, most notably the idea that the different races of Middle-earth need to overcome their estrangement in order to overcome evil. As far as the story-internal side is concerned, I have always thought it one of the weaknesses of the LOTR plot that the timescales covered are so little convincing. What I mean is mostly that a whole seventeen years pass after Bilbo’s party, during which Gandals seems to amble about finding tidbits of information, and then all of a sudden Frodo leaves basically the minute a Black Rider comes to his doorstep. That kind of coinicdence seems a bit contrived to me, as does the whole fact that the hobbits escape at all, particulalry after the events in Bree. But I’m getting side-tracked. The role of Bilbo as a tutor for Frodo is certainly a crucial one, and I would like to add that Bilbo also functions as a link between Elves, Dwarves and Men, which again nicely connects to the theme I mentioned above. | |
| Obelia medusa | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 1/5/2008 |
| These are all excellent essays. All sorts of things I had never thought about before! I was really impressed by your insights and careful research. Have you tried to get any of these published? If not, you really should! Surely there is some scholarly Tolkien journal out there that would love to have them? Author Reply: Thank you so much, dear!! I'm afraid I'm not up to the work that would be involved in making my little speculations fit for professional or scholarly publication, but knowing that you are an academic (though a scientific and not a literary one) I most certainly appreciate the compliment! | |
| PIppinfan1988 | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 8/10/2007 |
| Very well done!! For as much as I like Bilbo, I'll admit to not writing him as much as I ought to. Foremost reason is that I've read The Hobbit only once while I've read the LOTR trilogy a dozen times. I would have to give The Hobbit another read in order to feel comfortable with filling in some of those wonderful gaps you've mentioned, however, I simply don't have the time for that right now. Thus, when I *do* have the time and wits to sit down and write, I write about that which I know: the trilogy. I would love to read a story you've written about Bilbo pre-LOTR or even better, pre-Hobbit! :-) I just love your Musings! Author Reply: Well, I've not read it as often as LotR--maybe about a dozen times in comparison to umpteen for LotR (I lost track in '76, and it was 58 times then). But I've only read the Silm twice. But The Hobbit is so fun to read, and reading it in the light of what was written later in LotR makes so much of what's in it foreshadowing for later. Here's a list of my "early Bilbo" fic--I would imagine you've probably already read several of them. Pre-The Hobbit These are Bilbo stories taking place *before* the events recounted in The Hobbit. (Prior to the spring of S.R. 1341) "A Little Hobbit's Big Birthday" (Dreamflower's Mathoms II) "Learning Curve" (Dreamflower's Mathoms I) “Hide and Seek” (a drabble and a half; Dreamflower’s Mathoms I) “A Young Hobbit’s Fancy” (Dreamflower’s Mathoms I) “An Appeal to Family” (Dreamflower’s Mathoms I) The Hobbit These stories are gap-fillers for The Hobbit. (Taking place between the spring of S.R. 1341 and the spring of S.R. 1342) “A Merry Old Inn” "X: Like Excruciating Exertions on the way to that Crucial X on the Mouldering Map" ( An Alphabet for Middle-earth ) "Concussion" (Dreamflower's Mathoms) "Yule Among the Beornings" (Dreamflower's Mathoms II) If you'd really like to read a cool Bilbo story, Primsong's "Nothing of Note" is archived here on SoA. | |
| Queen Galadriel | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 8/6/2007 |
| Oh, how interesting! I had noticed many of those plot similarities, but not all. Bilbo really does get overlooked, but there are some delightful stories (my favorite being Primsongs Nothing of Note, which you recommended yourself and I *love*!), and these are great ideas for more. It kind of makes me regret that I'm taking a break from fic just now for the sake of original work (except for special occasions, perhaps). I hope someone tackles these! God bless, Galadriel Author Reply: At my LJ Hobbit Month post, I listed a whole bunch of links to Bilbo stories, but I did not include those here, as almost all of them were located here at SoA. I'm glad you are doing some original writing, but perhaps you might relax with a little fic once in a while! | |
| Larner | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 8/5/2007 |
| Now you've done it! The Bunnies are clamouring about me like a pack of Pomeranians--no--wait--that IS a pack of Pomeranians! Yes--definite food for thought, and a few areas I have pecked at already some.... Author Reply: Oh yay! I would *love* to see the Larner take on some of those bunnies! | |
| eiluj | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 8/5/2007 |
| What fun to read your musings! Also in both stories: Gandalf is involved in the journey, then is separated from them, then returns in the nick of time. Both heroes battle spiders who in each case almost bring the journey to an end. And in both tales, the journey not only has its proper beginning in Rivendell with counsel from Elrond, but makes a stop in Rivendell on the way back to the Shire. Have you read Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces? It's about the elements of the high fantasy quest. If you throw out the psychological and religious hogwash, and you aren't put off by what seems like thousands of examples from folklore and religions you're not familiar with, and you feel up to struggling through what is probably the densest text you've read since your last university course, it's wonderfully illuminating about high fantasy. You will find yourself saying, "And that's Gandalf!" "Good grief, in the first Star Wars film, it's R2D2!" etc. And somewhere along the line, long before I'd read Campbell, I read an essay by, I think, either Tolkien or Lewis (it's in a box somewhere) which was a much shorter explanation of the elements of high fantasy. Anyway, my point in mentioning Campbell was that in some cases, we see the same things in both The Hobbit and tLotR because they both follow the shape of a proper high fantasy tale. Whenever I read The Hobbit, I am struck by similarities between Bard of Dale and Strider/Aragorn: grim not-so-young Men of no apparent status who are heirs to lost kingdoms which in their current incarnations are badly run by the current rulers; through heroism and perseverence they take leadership positions and regain their crowns. 'It’s as though The Hobbit is actually a blueprint for LotR!" -- I think it's common for an author to have a favorite story, and just keep re-telling it. [That's not a bad thing.] Probably has something to do with the stories we liked as children being the ones we want to tell. And obviously while Tolkien had his repeat stories and themes, he had a great number of very different tales as well. I have always felt that JRRT just didn't realize how young he'd made the elder S-Bs. It would be possible, for example, to have Lobelia 5 or 10 years older than she is. [As it is, Lobelia is 46 when Lotho is born, but Primula has Frodo at 48, and Rosie has her last child at 56.] It would make Lobelia older at her death than any hobbit on the family trees (IIRC) other than Bilbo and the Old Took -- but as it is, too many of them die at 100 or 102. Stories of Bilbo and young Estel, from an incomplete list: "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell," by Aunt Dora Baggins. Henneth Annun "Estel and the Hobbit," by Eledhwen. Henneth Annun or ff.net "Fostering," by Larner. SoA "The Haven of Rivendell," by sindarinelvish. Henneth Annun "The Hobbit and the Dúnadan," by Wordweaver. SoA "Hope For the Future," by TinyWings. ff.net "A Short Rest," by Jay of Lasgalen. SoA "Tall Tales," by Misty. SoA "Reunion," by Dwimordene. Henneth Annun And some other Bilbo stories: "For the Road," by Alawa. Henneth Annun. "One Day," by Alawa. Henneth Annun "Revision," by Teasel. Henneth Annun "Sheathing Sting," by Celandine Brandybuck. Henneth Annun "Travellers' Tales," by Alawa. Henneth Annun. Author Reply: Yes indeed! Those are some other obvious similarities! I've not read that book of Joseph Campbell's, though I've read excerpts from it, and of course have seen it frequently quoted. Someday I will have to read the whole thing for myself. And of course both JRRT and CSL dealt with the matters of defining high fantasy in their own scholarly pursuits. I do think that "story-externally" JRRT did not develope his notions of the general ratio of hobbit ages until later--perhaps even after publication of LotR. Yet an examination of the Family Trees does show that hobbits bore children much later in life than the race of Men, another factor that probably influenced his ideas. I am quite sure that he wasn't thinking about it when he wrote The Hobbit. But "story-internally", he's left us a puzzle, and of course, solving such puzzles is one thing that fic is about. It makes me wonder if the grudges against Bilbo go back beyond Otho to his father perhaps? And thank you for the list of lovely Bilbo fics! I have already read all the ones here on SoA, but of the others you have listed, I believe I have only read "Sheathing Sting", at the MEFA site last year--or perhaps the year before? I don't often read fic at HASA, but obviously there looks like an untapped source! Thank you so much, once more! | |
| Antane | Reviewed Chapter: 5 on 8/5/2007 |
| Ah, those cute little plot bunnies, at least one is batting its eyes at me. I love finding out more and more as I delve more deeply into studying this marvelous tale how it all is connected, how Iluvatar brings everything together to get things to go the way He willed it. I hadn't thought of the Ring playing a part in its own destruction by keeping Bilbo young/robust long enough to adopt Frodo who would eventually play an important role in that destruction. Ah, how evil is allowed to defeat itself! Very good article. Would love to see more. When is Journey into Love going to continue - it's been forever! Namarie, God bless, Antane :) Author Reply: I would love to see you tackle one of those bunnies! "Journey Into Love" is slightly stalled for two reasons: it's research heavy, and also I am going to have a lot of area to cover, so I will have to decide which points are the most salient--I hate to leave anything out, but sometimes you can put in Too Much Information and kind of kill the mood. But trust me, it is not abandoned! | |