Kitty
· 1 July 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
It needs to be said that the rearing of children is mostly a matter of good common Hobbit-sense; unfortunately, such Hobbit-sense is not nearly so common as it ought to be, and in some Families may even be said to be in short supply! Hmmm ... why have I to think of Lotho and Ted here? And sadly I could name some families in RL who are lacking badly in common Hobbit-sense.
At some parts I had to grin - they bring certain hobbits to mind, and I strongly suppose Dora thought of the same persons, too, when she wrote this.
All in all, her advice is still very true in most aspects. Of course, children didn't change overmuch since then and the problems are mostly the same in every generation, but the hobbits knew obviously more about children than some modern day parents.
Happy birthday to you, my dear!
Author's reply
Well, I'm sure she probably at *least* had the S-Bs in mind, and she may have known the Sandyman family as well.
I am quite sure she did think of people she knew, though she did try to be discreet. And I think that hobbits may have been very advanced as far as the social aspects of life went--much moreso than Humans, whether modern or not!
Thank you!!
Elemmírë
· 1 July 2006
· Chapter 4: Chapter Four: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Three--Tweenagers
ROTFL!!
Love the bit with the ale and inquiring into your local inn's customs.
Only hobbits would put it as 'Putting the dessert before the main course' LOL!
>>Tweens of thirty or older may be trusted for the most part with more Adult Responsibilities, and it is as well to do so as much as is Practicably Possible, for it is Unfair to allow all such Responsibilities to fall upon his or her shoulders the day after the Birthday<<
Oh! _Another_ area where Bilbo seems to have fallen short of Dora's good graces. That could be an interesting plot bunny too ... Dora's reaction to Bilbo's leaving Frodo so suddenly and the consequences. I would imagine Frodo regretting the fact that Bilbo gifted her with the wastebasket as I'm sure she would have PLENTY of advice for the new adult on the care of Bag End, his resposibilities, etc.
I'm just loving this, Dreamflower. I eagerly await the next chapter.
shirebound
· 1 July 2006
· Chapter 4: Chapter Four: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Three--Tweenagers
Another delightful chapter! I can well imagine hobbits all over the Shire pulling down from the shelf Aunt Dora's Book at (or before) every new Milestone of Life!
Sweet Pea
· 30 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
I love this! It has the feel of the old advice books. Great job! :-)
Sweet Pea
· 30 June 2006
· Chapter 1: Chapter One: Foreword
This is great! I love it and look forward to reading the chapters to come!
Author's reply
Thank you! I'm glad you like it!
Bodkin
· 29 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
Aunt Dora's reflections are wonderful. And particularly accurate, of course, coming as they do from an elderly spinster!
I found a wonderful 'how to bring up baby' book when my children were small. There's nothing funnier than old-fashioned didactic writing.
Author's reply
Well, she may be an elderly spinster, but she's very observant, and has a good store of hobbit-sense.
I know--they are *so* much fun. I have a reproduction of a cookbook from the early nineteenth century, and there is as much advice in there as there are recipes, LOL! It's so funny--especially how apt much of it is, even today!
MaidenofValinor
· 29 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
Who is this "Notable Exception", I wonder...
This is simply wonderful.
A pleasure to read.
You are brilliant....are you sure you're not a hobbit in disguise?
Author's reply
*whistles innocently* I've no idea...;)
Aren't we *all* hobbits at heart around here?
I am so glad you are enjoying it!
Elemmírë
· 28 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
>>But a wise Parent will discourage too many gifts for the young byrding: he or she is likely to become Overexcited, and miss the true point of the Birthday, which is the Giving of the Gifts.
It should be emphasized to the small byrding that he or she will now be bestowing Presents like a “big lad” or “big lass”, a lure that will fill the childish heart with pride and glee. At some point, these Gifts must be chosen.<<
That is just so ... hobbity, Dreamflower! (Now that would make a cute tale ... Prim and Drogo letting Frodo know that he is a Big Lad and must pick out mathoms. Hmmm ...)
>>Again, unless one is living in the Ancestral Home, it is also in Poor Taste to throw an elaborate Party for a child--even on the Fifth Birthday. It is likely to give the byrding a false impression of his or her own Importance in the World <<
I guess Bilbo ignored this advice from Dora since he and Frodo share a birthday. Frodo turned out all right in the end, however. *grin* Wonder what Dora truly thought of those elaborate parties for her only nephew?
So were Frodo, Merry, & Pippin 3 of those cousins Dora observed?
LOL! 'Lads are not to be trusted in the larder.'
>>With a certain Notable Exception, Hobbits who leave to find Adventure never Return. This alone should eventually serve as a Cautionary.<<
What a hoot!! I can't wait to read the next chapter, Dreamflower!
P.S. I'm curious. Is Dora going to have a special chapter on the needs and care of the orphaned child, since it is so very rare in Shire. It's a subject that's obviously affected her and she _does_ love to hand out advice ...
Author's reply
I'm glad you thought it hobbity. It just seemed to me that if (according to JRRT) they make such a big deal of children *entering* faunthood, they would be likely to do the same thing when they *leave* it!
Hmm...I've done fifth birthday fics for Merry and Pippin, but not Frodo or Sam. I'll have to think about it...
She probably thought Bilbo was a law unto himself, and that it was very fortunate that Frodo was a sensible lad, and unlikely to let it turn his head.
Yes. They were.
And no, they aren't. LOL!
Dora *is* being a bit snide there, isn't she? *grin*
I am *quite* sure she handed out *plenty* of advice to Bilbo--whether he wanted it or not!
Nienor Niniel
· 28 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
Ah, nice mix of real parenting advice and hobbit culture. I like the emphasis on hospitality and food - in character for hobbits. The distinction between the Lesser and the Great Families also works well for me.
I think your age chart makes sense: I've always thought, too, that hobbits aged slower than us, and not that they simply spent a longer time in adolescence.
As I said before: a great read, and I like that you update so quickly.
All the best, Nienor
Author's reply
I am trying to mix the two into a coherent blend of what would come out as "Hobbit-sense", and I'm glad you think it's working.
Food and hospitality would definitely be something that Hobbits would put a good deal of emphasis on, and there will be more of it in the "Mealtimes and Manners" chapter. JRRT himself uses the term "Great Families" in his Letters. I sort of envision a Roll, on which the Families are listed in order of importance, with the Tooks, Brandybucks, Baggins, Bolgers and Boffins at the very top, followed by some of the other families that seem to be prominent. The Great Families would all be the ones near the top, and I envision the Lesser Ones as being near the bottom.
It only makes sense. If a hobbit child does not become a toddler until age three, and then comes of age at 33 instead of 21, then it seems to me that the growth and aging process is spread over the lifetime of the hobbit, instead of just concentrated in adolescence. And a number of hints JRRT drops seems to support that notion.
The story has me by the throat right now, so as long as it does that I'll be updating pretty quickly--probably to the detriment of other stories, I'm afraid. But this one doesn't give me the trouble a regular story does. No plot snags, LOL!
demeter d
· 28 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
With such close and supporting families, most Hobbits must have been happy individuals.And even "the Village" cares what one does, hence the advice for "children not one's own". the four visitors, ...hmmm, the younger brother, of course, Pippin, the other young one possibly Merry, the oldest would be Frodo. The other one would be one of the cousins close to Frodo's age, of which several appear in various author's fan-fictions. I am not as familiar with some of this as I would like to be. Looking forward to more!
Author's reply
I think most hobbits probably were. I get the impression that most hobbits were very content with their lives.
Well, you've mostly guessed right. The fourth cousin was Fredegar Bolger. I thought about including Folco, but thought five might be pushing it a bit.
French Pony
· 28 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
Ooo, the dreaded Poor Taste! You know you're in for it when an etiquette mistress deems something to be in Poor Taste.
I think I probably know the little child in the Old Smials with the three older sisters. . .
And of course, every little Hobbit child ought to be able to rattle off a proper genealogy. Just the image of some small child doing that is absolutely hysterical. I love it. And it seems to me that Miss Dora might well have done some disciplining of children Not Her Own.
Author's reply
Oh yes! Miss Dora knows Poor Taste when she sees it!
You probably do, *grin*
I did this little bit in one of my fics where a young Merry introduces Fatty and Folco to Farmer Cotton, reeling off their cousinly connections with confidence. And I suddenly realized, "Of course! That *is* the first thing a hobbit is going to want to know about another hobbit--who they are related to!"
I am quite certain that she did. And that any young Hobbit subject to her eagle eye would probably never forget it!
shirebound
· 28 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
I just love the words you choose to capitalize; it's easy to see what Aunt Dora thinks is Important and Worth Knowing.
One of the interesting things I'm gleaning from this Etiquette Book is how truly unusual the actions of "unexpected" hobbit -- such as Bilbo or one of the wandering Tooks -- must have been to such an ordered society.
Eeee, "the Delightful Mysteries of the Kitchen"! :D
Author's reply
*grin* Yes, she does seem to Love those Capital Letters!
Yes, hobbits are by nature very orderly creatures, and those hobbits who were exceptional would have been definitely looked at askance!
Glad you liked that phrase--I was moderately fond of it myself.
SurgicalSteel
· 28 June 2006
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
Oh, this was lovely, too! I can't help but think that Miss Dora would've been an excellent parent - and can't wait to see her comments on the 'tween years!
*snerk* And wonder what she said about Bilbo on his return from an Adventure?
Author's reply
Well, the Tween years are next. Her magnum opus is rather extensive.
I think she probably would have been--she seems to be well-endowed with that "Hobbit-sense" she so extolls.
Miss Dora would like to remind you that she has Named No Names... It would not be Proper. *grin*
Nienor Niniel
· 28 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
Oh, very inventive!
I especially like the idea of the "giving of the First Gifts" and the notion that loss of appetite (relative at that) is an indication for a Hobbit child being ill.
I'm looking forward to more!
Nienor
Author's reply
The "first Gifts" is, of course, JRRT's own idea, and comes from a very charming passage in Letter #214, but I just dress it up a bit, and formalize it some--knowing how Hobbits love an occasion, I am quite sure that's what they would have done.
It's quite clear that Hobbits have a very high metabolism. If a child did not eat at all, it would definitely be a cause for worry!
demeter d
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
Here we have a Hobbit's eye view on the importance of Fathers and the ever-present, large, extended family. It sounds as though "Aunt Dora" must have been called upon to play the Aunt or Cousin's part for many children. I find her description of Faunthood especially charming, as I teach the two and three year olds at church! Very familiar. Hobbits seem to instill at a very early age what it means to be part of society. Looking forward to more!
Author's reply
Well, she had one neice and one nephew, and in my Shire, she also had a great-nephew (Daisy's son Folco). But she helped to raise Daisy, as her broher's health was poor, and she had countless Cousins I am sure!
Yes,our two and three year olds are just about the same as hobbit three to five year olds--except hobbit children gain more vocabulary over that period of time.
For Hobbits, as social and clannish creatures, Society and Family are very important. Something that will be very in evidence in future chapters...
demeter d
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 1: Chapter One: Foreword
Absolutely delightful! I have not seen anything a bit like this yet. It should be as much fun to write as it was to read this. "Respectability, Hospitality, and Kindness. But she does stress that true kindness was the most important. I think you and Miss Dora have hit at the Hobbit heart, here.
I will be looking forward to the rest!
Author's reply
I am so glad you are enjoying it--it *is* fun to write! I don't have to worry about "plot" or anything like that, I just put my mind on hobbits (which is where it stays almost all the time anyway) and then kind of just cruise along.
I think that Kindness would *so* important to Hobbits. We learn that Gandalf was attracted to Hobbits by their Pity, their care and concern, for one another in a time of trouble--and what is that but Kindness?
Glory Underhill
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
You really have captured the voice I've always imagined for Dora! I love the special use of capitalization too! A very fun piece!
Author's reply
I've always loved those sorts of old-fashioned books with all the capitalizations!
It is fun--I'm having a blast writing it, it just won't leave me alone!
MaidenofValinor
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
Oh, this is simply wonderful! It really should be published. Haha.
though if the child wishes to give something truly loathsome or noxious, he or she can be distracted and steered to a more attractive alternative.
That made me laugh, and this:
If a child pleads no Hunger at all, then it is time to call a Healer.
I'd be very worried...teehee!
Can't wait to read more. A simply brilliant idea.
Author's reply
Well, it *is* being published, sort of. On the 'net.
I could just imagine some big brother taking his little brother out on his third birthday, and thinking it would be really funny to let him take some bugs or something in for the parents...the parents would not be amused.
Well, yes, we are told that normally hobbit children have voracious appetites, so one with no appetite at all would definitely be a problem.
AspenJules
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
LOL... this should be published. While not *all* of the advice applies to Men, so many such parents could benefit from Miss Dora's sound counsel. There's almost too much to mention that I loved! The responsibility of Fathers with regard to less pleasant tasks, sleeping with siblings(and those rare occasions when parents may wish a bit of Privacy, upon which she chooses not to go into detail *snickers*, how older siblings should discourage inappropriate gifts for the Faunt to give parents "for the faunt will not be the one to bear the blame."
I also love the discussion of the tricky task of teaching faunts to be kind without lying. Very good, very good. For some reason, I just kept thinking of young Pippin Took through many of these bits. Wee!Pip did such a good job trying to behave, and you could see the influence of many of the practices Miss Dora espouses in his life. She really was quite practical, wasn't she? "For some Unfathomable Reason, they learn how to undress themselves more quickly. This can be a problem." Oh man... *giggles madly*.
I loved this - can't wait for more - like comments on "Tween-hood"!
Author's reply
I'm so glad you picked those bits out--those were some of my favorite things to come up with! Thank you!
Yes, I did have little Pippin in mind, as well as wee Merry, not to mention little Folco Boffin.
Next chapter is childhood to teens, and then will come Tweens...
Elemmírë
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
A DORA STORY!!!!!! I thought I was the only one! I'm in the process of writing and editing the last few chapters of my Dora story. Don't worry, it's quite different from yours. :D
All this child-rearing advice is very amusing coming from a life-long spinster aunt, who only has one niece and one nephew. I like how she's the Emily Post & Dear Abby of your Shire, however!
Can't wait for more, Dreamflower!
Author's reply
Oh I do so look forward to seeing your Dora!
Well, she's had a lifetime of observation. I think she is very sharp and observant, and has probably kept her ears open, for over a century, so she does have a lot of wisdom to draw on, even if no personal experience.
More is coming soon.
Pearl Took
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
Though this all sounds so nice and tidy, it leaves me wondering if Dear Dora actually had any children of her own. LOL (I do see in the Baggins family tree that she doen't have a husband listed ;) )
Mealtimes and Manners is next :) (that should be interesting, hehehe)
Author's reply
No, Dear Dora, LOL! seems to have been a spinster, or at least at the age of 99, in "A Long-Expected Party" she is referred to as Dora Baggins, and I don't believe she could have married at that age, much less have children. *grin* But she did help to raise her neice Daisy (at least in my Shire) and probably had a good deal of babysitting experience. I think she was probably also very observant.
Well, not quite next--we still have a couple of stages of child-rearing to go. But I can tell you now, I intend to have good fun with Mealtimes and Manners!
DrummerWench
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
Dreamflower, what a fab idea! And the Dear Abby bits are great!
It looks the sort of thing you can turn to for a change of writing pace, too.
DrummerWench
Author's reply
I'm having a blast with it! It's so much easier in one way, than a normal story, because there's no need for plot, and the only character I need to worry about is Aunt Dora herself. Yet in other ways it's a little harder, as I am combing through the books and Letters, looking for canon hints about Hobbit customs and manners, that I can then take and expand upon.
French Pony
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
So this is not just an etiquette manual? It looks like it really is "reams" of good advice. Good for Dora. I wonder if she ever had any children. I particularly enjoy the observation at the beginning that good common Hobbit sense is not nearly as common as it ought to be. That is charming and so true. For the most part, the advice seems sound, but I hope that we'll get more into manners soon. That has the potential to be truly side-splittingly funny, especially given the poker-faced way you write it.
Author's reply
It really is. The old-fashioned books did ramble on with all sorts of advice and not just manners alone.
Dora never wed. She remained a spinster. But she helped to raise her neice Daisy, and she was very observant and sharp. I imagine she was often called upon to take care of various young cousins as well.
I'm looking forward to the "manners" part myself. *grin* You will see, though, that a good deal of the child-rearing advice also concerned the Rudiments of Manners.
shirebound
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
After the gathering of the Gift, the child will then return home and give the Present to the parents at second breakfast. It is wise for the parents to make much of this Gift, and to praise the child lavishly. Thus he or she will learn early that it is better to Give than to Receive. It is usual for the Mother to keep some of the blooms, and press them, and preserve them in a Keepsake Book or Box. In later years, she can show them to the child and recount how happy the Gift made her, and how proud she was of her child.
Awww, I love that part the best! :D
Author's reply
I thought I would expand on that lovely little hint we are given in Letter #214:
"It may be noted that Hobbits, as soon as they became 'faunts' (that is talkers and walkers: formally taken to be on their third birthday-anniversary) gave presents to their parents. These were supposed to be things 'produced' by the giver (that is found, grown, or made by the 'byrding'), beginning in small children with bunches of wild flowers." (JRRT, Letter to A.C. Nunn, sometime in 1958 or 59)
I think this is an adorable custom, and wanted to make it a bit more formalized, as I think Hobbits would have done.
This "story" owes a lot to Letter #214.
PIppinfan1988
· 27 June 2006
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
I could get on quite well with Miss Dora Baggins and her lovely advice. :-) I couldn't agree with her more on rearing hobbit-children. LOL, did anyone ever tell her that rearing children is an adventure in and of itself? ;-) Shhh! Don't tell her, lol.
Pippinfan
Author's reply
Miss Dora really was a very observant hobbit. I hope that most of her advice seemed sound.
Adventure? *horrified tones* Surely Not! It is a perfectly Practical Thing to do! (*grin*)