Dreamflower's Musings by Dreamflower
Virtuella · 29 November 2008 · Chapter 2: Tolkien's Use of Expletives
Yes! Well done! It annoys me how even good fanfic writers come up with this "By Elbereth" stuff. I didn't research it, like you did, but I was pretty aware that the flavour of the books is much what you've found with little beyond "Good grief!" I wonder whether it is a habit of our current society to feelt eh need for constant expletives?
Virtuella · 29 November 2008 · Chapter 5: The Importance of Being Bilbo
Just pasting my MEFA review: What a very interesting essay! You’ll know by now that I’m always looking for what you call the “story-external” and what I call the “structural” issues, and I was surprised at what you unearthed here in the way of similarities between The Hobbit and LOTR. Coming to think of it, there are also similarities in themes, most notably the idea that the different races of Middle-earth need to overcome their estrangement in order to overcome evil. As far as the story-internal side is concerned, I have always thought it one of the weaknesses of the LOTR plot that the timescales covered are so little convincing. What I mean is mostly that a whole seventeen years pass after Bilbo’s party, during which Gandals seems to amble about finding tidbits of information, and then all of a sudden Frodo leaves basically the minute a Black Rider comes to his doorstep. That kind of coinicdence seems a bit contrived to me, as does the whole fact that the hobbits escape at all, particulalry after the events in Bree. But I’m getting side-tracked. The role of Bilbo as a tutor for Frodo is certainly a crucial one, and I would like to add that Bilbo also functions as a link between Elves, Dwarves and Men, which again nicely connects to the theme I mentioned above.
cathleen · 25 August 2008 · Chapter 6: The Myth of the One Ring's Power
I've really gotten a great deal out of all these essays and I hope you do another one very soon!
GamgeeFest · 7 July 2008 · Chapter 6: The Myth of the One Ring's Power
He forgot he himself was a mere creation, and that Love, Mercy and Grace came from One far more Powerful than himself. Bravo! *claps* Very well put. I agree that the Ring does go into ‘overkill’ mode with its influence and visions of power, but then, that is all it knows. The One, however, knows All and so by extension does everyone else that he created. Sauron did at one time also, but he allowed himself to forget these things as he fell into the lure of Morgorth’s teachings, and in doing so laid the groundwork for his own destruction.
Antane · 5 July 2008 · Chapter 6: The Myth of the One Ring's Power
Finished this at last! An interesting way of looking at the Ring. Love the ending, esp. the last sentence. I wonder if the Ring brought out in a person whatever was strongest in them as Gandalf seems to suggest in that it knew he would want to heal the hurts of the world and if that is so, then when it tried to corrupt Sam, it only magnified the incredible love for Frodo already there and in Frodo, the sense of responsibility and love for others he had already had, both to its own doom. Namarie, God bless, Antane :)
Robert · 18 June 2008 · Chapter 6: The Myth of the One Ring's Power
I'd discount the examples from the Hobbit. We know Bilbo's description of trolls and elves was rather more comic than the true picture Frodo later recorded, in his section of the red book. Therefore, we would expect him to moderate the dwarves' behaviour too, maintaining the same light tone. If the ring had been at work, he probably wouldn't have mentioned it. (Or, in story external terms, Tolkien changed the rules between the Hobbit and its sequel, invalidating comparisons.) Tom and suprisingly Shelob give the biggest clues to the ring's appeal. It has no power over Tom because he has no desire for mastery, not even for good. Gandalf, and the Valar, desire to steer events to good ends through moral means. To achieve those ends they need a measure of power, and so must desire it, not for itself but for what they can do with it - and through this small chink the ring can tempt then. Tom, on the other hand, does not desire to do anything whatsoever, merely to be. In his soul, the ring can find no purchase. Shelob likewise has no interest in the ring, though she is a creature of purest malice who came within inches of it. This is because she too has no interest in power over others, for good or ill. She, like Morgoth, is a pure nihilist, desiring only to devour all creation. The ring, which is fundamentally constructive, though in a warped way, cannot serve her passion for destruction, and so she passes it by. In this, Shelob was more evil than Sauron, even at his nadir. As Tolkien said, Sauron's ultimate intent was always constructive. He wanted to make Middle Earth a Utopia, but he did not make allowance for free will. Instead, under Morgoth's influence, he tried to force everyone to follow his dictats for their own good. He put off his utopian plans to the distant future, and concentrated on gaining the power he needed to force people to comply. However, he never embraced Morgoth's nihilistic madness. He desired power to rule, not to destroy, and so his ring was not a tool of destruction but of construction (albeit of tyrannies). Over those with no desire to build, such as Tom and Shelob, it had no power. Incidentally, several ages later, Saruman fell into the exact same trap. His speech to Gandalf at Isenguard - the one about tolerating undesirable company to gain the power to order middle earth for the greater good - is probably an echo of the lies with which Morgoth had seduced Sauron long ago. It's also as close as we'll ever get to Sauron's own manifesto.
Author's reply
You make some excellent points here. As far as The Hobbit goes, you are quite correct that JRRT "changed the rules", and that "story-externally" the Ring in The Hobbit, in spite of later edits really is not quite the same as the Ring in LotR (a point you make with trolls and Elves very well, also.) LotR was not even a gleam in JRRT's eye when he wrote The Hobbit. 8-) However, one of the things I am fascinated with is a "story-internal" explanation of such inconsistencies: in other words, JRRT gives us a contradiction, yet it is canon, so what would be an explanation inside the structure of the story (accepting that what JRRT said happened, happened) for that seeming contradiction? So to construct a "story-internal" explanation, I *have* to consider The Hobbit. My own story-internal explanation for many of those inconsistencies is that Bilbo "toned down" the seriousness of his adventure for the younger hobbits to whom he told the story. There could perhaps be other story-internal reasons for the differences. It is the story-internal dynamic that drives my own fanfiction, as I try to figure these things out within the context of the story. And story-internally, Bilbo's interactions with the Ring and with Gollum are extraordinary, and show him to be a person of remarkable compassion and humility. You make a very good point about Tom and Shelob. Tom was, perhaps, not a good example--he was obviously not mortal, so the rules about invisibility would not have affected him, even if he *had* been the sort of creature to whom power would appeal. Still, from Frodo's perspective that was something that disturbed him. I may need to rethink my use of Tom, though clearly I would still need to address his interaction with the Ring. And you are absolutely 100% correct about Shelob, something with which I completely agree, and so did not take her into consideration in the essay. And I like very much the comparison of Sauron to Saruman, and their difference to Morgoth. Morgoth wanted to destroy all of creation because his "contribution" to it was "rejected"--(his perception, of course, not Eru's intent) while Sauron--and Saruman--simply wanted the power to rule over it, and order it all to their own ideas. Thank you so much for your insightful comments!
Kitty · 5 June 2008 · Chapter 6: The Myth of the One Ring's Power
Sorry for being so late in reviewing! Dreamflower, this is a great and interesting essay! I had already thought it obvious that the Ring did work best with those who had a bad character to begin with - like Gollum - and was very slow to make any impression on others, and even here mainly these who desired power for good purposes. But I never followed through on this train of thought far enough to question the power of the One Ring, merely thought how much better the others were able to fight off his attempts to take them. But it makes sense. And somehow it is very comforting to think that this nasty thing was not as successful as it believed :P
Author's reply
No need to apologize, dear! I'm always glad to get comments whenever its convenient! I began to think on this when the movies came out and PJ made the Ring so much *more* powerful, even showing it tempting Aragorn and Faramir, and making it so that Frodo could only resist it if Sam grabbed him by the hand!! And then I read a fic about Boromir, and it talked about how he had actually thrown off the Ring's temptation before the end...and I started to wonder. Of course, it *was* beginning to make an impression on Bilbo--his restlessness and "feeling thin and stretched" were obviously Ring-induced! But he'd had it for fifty years, and made *use* of it! And still, it had taken that long? And Bilbo's reaction? Not to *claim* it, but to get rid of it! (Though he did need Gandalf's help for that--and at that time, they still did not *know* it was the One.) And then I looked at Gandalf's, Galadriel's and Faramir's rejection of the Ring, and started to get a clue... That's not to say, the Ring was not mighty and powerful still. Just not as powerful as some would have it! But *I* certainly would not want to be tested by it!
Larner · 30 May 2008 · Chapter 6: The Myth of the One Ring's Power
Excellent review of the Ring's limitations, Dreamflower. I've often felt, however, that there was at least one more who was tempted and corrupted by the Ring, although he appears to have remained ignorant of Its very existence, and that is Lotho. The desire to dominate of a born bully in him has become distorted beyond what has ever been seen before among Hobbits, and he convinces himself that once he becomes Master of Bag End and, he thinks, the Hill, he then can become Master of the Shire as well. This illusion is stoked by Saruman via his agents as well, probably, by those within the Shire who share his resentment of true leadership abilities apparently demonstrated by Frodo and the perceived power of Master and Thain. That neither the Thain nor the Master has ever apparently sought to capitalize on their inherited positions must have rankled such folks as your Hyacinth or my Timono Bracegirdle; Lotho appears to have fantasized for a long time what he would do once he becomes "The Baggins of Bag End," and immediately begins trying to turn the Shire upside down. He's going to force modernization by replacing the environmentally friendly water-driven mills with steam-powered ones; he's going to enforce sobriety by closing the inns; he's going to become the one dispenser of life by authorizing "gathering and sharing" and making arbitrary rules about how much wood can be burned in a day, who can live where, who can travel when and how, how much food is available. If he cannot command love, he will at least command what he sees as respect, although what he truly commands is mere fear of retaliation. Your Bankses and my more negative Bracegirdles are in many ways far more aware of how flawed Lotho's plans and concepts are from the start, although they, too, fall into the trap of thinking that once others are forced to follow the "Rules" through intimidation they can be induced to remain intimidated indefinitely. That is simply untrue; and like all dictatorial governments it sows the seeds of its own destruction. Once you've lost all, there comes the point when there's simply insufficient the government can continue to take away to keep control. I already live in poverty; I have nothing left to lose; at least through counter-actions I have the chance to make things better for me and mine; given the chance and encouragement I WILL act. Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin return, and they see the absurdity outright; they reduce the "arresting" Shiriffs to a troop of foolish-looking souls who can't even keep up with them. Instead of dragging these four returnees before "The Chief" or "The Boss," they are made to look as if they are in the charge of those they are supposed to be indimidating. "Who's arresting who?" asks the amused old gaffer, watching them; and when a few try to break away to take the scoffer to the Lockholes in retaliation for his ability to see the "Emperor has no clothes on" Frodo merely orders their leader to order them back into line. Obviously the Travellers grant the Shiriffs no authority over them, and so their power to intimidate crumbles right away. Similarly with the ruffians--they find that when sufficiently roused these formerly confused Boffins and Gravellies and Tunnelies and such are willing to stand up to them and to fight back, and their power also crumbles; and then they find themselves facing a level of power they are helpless against--instead of ordering retaliation, Frodo commands mercy shown those who admit they've been beaten. This is a form of strength they cannot begin to appreciate, for Frodo sees them in terms of being people, not in terms of being good or bad, allies or enemies. Each is reduced to being someone who needs cherishing--yet they're not allowed to remain where they are, and are sent packing--but only after they've been given fair treatment. One wonders how many of them might know changes of heart after such treatment? And once again I find myself seeking to rival you in spouting my own appreciation of the philosophy behind Tolkien's works. Please forgive me.
Author's reply
It's quite possible that Lotho (and his parents) might have been influenced by the proximity of the Ring to them--but of course, for it to affect them that way, they would have to have been flawed with the kind of greed that led Gollum to fall prey so easily. And I tend to agree that it sounds more than plausible. But I didn't speculate on that, since there isn't any canon evidence to point to one way or the other. And you are also quite right in the way that the returning Travellers handled the situation. Having been among those who had a right to rule, the four returning hobbits would not sit still for those who were merely pretenders and interlopers. Oh, I love to listen to other people spout off about JRRT and Middle-earth and hobbits--after all, they listen to *me* spouting off, often enough, LOL!
eiluj · 30 May 2008 · Chapter 6: The Myth of the One Ring's Power
Well done. Re. Tom Bombadil, I think I read somewhere the theory that those who were powerful enough to control the Ring could understand and control its invisibility function. Sauron wasn't invisible when wearing the Ring. Which brings up the question of *why* Sauron put that power in the Ring in the first place. At the time he made the Ring, he still had control over his shape and appearance -- though he surely knew of other evil Maiar who'd lost the ability to take a pleasing shape, or who were stuck in one shape. Was the Ring's invisibility function to give him an extra margin of safety in case the time came when he could no longer control his appearance? Then there's the RPG theory: the Ring's invisibility, like the disappearing Tengwar, was another way of disguising its importance. To someone who found it but couldn't sense its magic, it appeared a normal golden ring. To someone who knew enough to sense its magic, the invisibility provided an explanation of why it radiated magic. [Apologies if this is too incoherent.] Psst: in the third paragraph, I think you mean Celebrimbor rather than Celeborn.
Author's reply
I believe that actually,the invisibility was a side-effect on *mortals* of any of the Great Rings, much like the longevity. Rats! I can't find the quote anymore...*sigh* But since technically Tom wasn't a mortal, it wouldn't have had the same effect. However, Frodo wasn't to know that--and I'm not sure the Ring would have sensed it, either. However, in case I'm wrong, I think your theories are quite plausible. And thanks--yes, it should be Celebrimbor. *facepalm* I am afraid to go in and change it, lest it mess up the formatting. But I guess I'd better. Author Reply: Fixed Celebrimbor--the only thing it messed up was the italics on the Ring inscription at the beginning. I don't think I'll push my luck...
Obelia medusa · 5 January 2008 · Chapter 5: The Importance of Being Bilbo
These are all excellent essays. All sorts of things I had never thought about before! I was really impressed by your insights and careful research. Have you tried to get any of these published? If not, you really should! Surely there is some scholarly Tolkien journal out there that would love to have them?
Author's reply
Thank you so much, dear!! I'm afraid I'm not up to the work that would be involved in making my little speculations fit for professional or scholarly publication, but knowing that you are an academic (though a scientific and not a literary one) I most certainly appreciate the compliment!
PIppinfan1988 · 10 August 2007 · Chapter 5: The Importance of Being Bilbo
Very well done!! For as much as I like Bilbo, I'll admit to not writing him as much as I ought to. Foremost reason is that I've read The Hobbit only once while I've read the LOTR trilogy a dozen times. I would have to give The Hobbit another read in order to feel comfortable with filling in some of those wonderful gaps you've mentioned, however, I simply don't have the time for that right now. Thus, when I *do* have the time and wits to sit down and write, I write about that which I know: the trilogy. I would love to read a story you've written about Bilbo pre-LOTR or even better, pre-Hobbit! :-) I just love your Musings!
Author's reply
Well, I've not read it as often as LotR--maybe about a dozen times in comparison to umpteen for LotR (I lost track in '76, and it was 58 times then). But I've only read the Silm twice. But The Hobbit is so fun to read, and reading it in the light of what was written later in LotR makes so much of what's in it foreshadowing for later. Here's a list of my "early Bilbo" fic--I would imagine you've probably already read several of them. Pre-The Hobbit These are Bilbo stories taking place *before* the events recounted in The Hobbit. (Prior to the spring of S.R. 1341) "A Little Hobbit's Big Birthday" (Dreamflower's Mathoms II) "Learning Curve" (Dreamflower's Mathoms I) “Hide and Seek” (a drabble and a half; Dreamflower’s Mathoms I) “A Young Hobbit’s Fancy” (Dreamflower’s Mathoms I) “An Appeal to Family” (Dreamflower’s Mathoms I) The Hobbit These stories are gap-fillers for The Hobbit. (Taking place between the spring of S.R. 1341 and the spring of S.R. 1342) “A Merry Old Inn” "X: Like Excruciating Exertions on the way to that Crucial X on the Mouldering Map" ( An Alphabet for Middle-earth ) "Concussion" (Dreamflower's Mathoms) "Yule Among the Beornings" (Dreamflower's Mathoms II) If you'd really like to read a cool Bilbo story, Primsong's "Nothing of Note" is archived here on SoA.
Queen Galadriel · 6 August 2007 · Chapter 5: The Importance of Being Bilbo
Oh, how interesting! I had noticed many of those plot similarities, but not all. Bilbo really does get overlooked, but there are some delightful stories (my favorite being Primsongs Nothing of Note, which you recommended yourself and I *love*!), and these are great ideas for more. It kind of makes me regret that I'm taking a break from fic just now for the sake of original work (except for special occasions, perhaps). I hope someone tackles these! God bless, Galadriel
Author's reply
At my LJ Hobbit Month post, I listed a whole bunch of links to Bilbo stories, but I did not include those here, as almost all of them were located here at SoA. I'm glad you are doing some original writing, but perhaps you might relax with a little fic once in a while!
Larner · 5 August 2007 · Chapter 5: The Importance of Being Bilbo
Now you've done it! The Bunnies are clamouring about me like a pack of Pomeranians--no--wait--that IS a pack of Pomeranians! Yes--definite food for thought, and a few areas I have pecked at already some....
Author's reply
Oh yay! I would *love* to see the Larner take on some of those bunnies!
eiluj · 5 August 2007 · Chapter 5: The Importance of Being Bilbo
What fun to read your musings! Also in both stories: Gandalf is involved in the journey, then is separated from them, then returns in the nick of time. Both heroes battle spiders who in each case almost bring the journey to an end. And in both tales, the journey not only has its proper beginning in Rivendell with counsel from Elrond, but makes a stop in Rivendell on the way back to the Shire. Have you read Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces? It's about the elements of the high fantasy quest. If you throw out the psychological and religious hogwash, and you aren't put off by what seems like thousands of examples from folklore and religions you're not familiar with, and you feel up to struggling through what is probably the densest text you've read since your last university course, it's wonderfully illuminating about high fantasy. You will find yourself saying, "And that's Gandalf!" "Good grief, in the first Star Wars film, it's R2D2!" etc. And somewhere along the line, long before I'd read Campbell, I read an essay by, I think, either Tolkien or Lewis (it's in a box somewhere) which was a much shorter explanation of the elements of high fantasy. Anyway, my point in mentioning Campbell was that in some cases, we see the same things in both The Hobbit and tLotR because they both follow the shape of a proper high fantasy tale. Whenever I read The Hobbit, I am struck by similarities between Bard of Dale and Strider/Aragorn: grim not-so-young Men of no apparent status who are heirs to lost kingdoms which in their current incarnations are badly run by the current rulers; through heroism and perseverence they take leadership positions and regain their crowns. 'It’s as though The Hobbit is actually a blueprint for LotR!" -- I think it's common for an author to have a favorite story, and just keep re-telling it. [That's not a bad thing.] Probably has something to do with the stories we liked as children being the ones we want to tell. And obviously while Tolkien had his repeat stories and themes, he had a great number of very different tales as well. I have always felt that JRRT just didn't realize how young he'd made the elder S-Bs. It would be possible, for example, to have Lobelia 5 or 10 years older than she is. [As it is, Lobelia is 46 when Lotho is born, but Primula has Frodo at 48, and Rosie has her last child at 56.] It would make Lobelia older at her death than any hobbit on the family trees (IIRC) other than Bilbo and the Old Took -- but as it is, too many of them die at 100 or 102. Stories of Bilbo and young Estel, from an incomplete list: "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell," by Aunt Dora Baggins. Henneth Annun "Estel and the Hobbit," by Eledhwen. Henneth Annun or ff.net "Fostering," by Larner. SoA "The Haven of Rivendell," by sindarinelvish. Henneth Annun "The Hobbit and the Dúnadan," by Wordweaver. SoA "Hope For the Future," by TinyWings. ff.net "A Short Rest," by Jay of Lasgalen. SoA "Tall Tales," by Misty. SoA "Reunion," by Dwimordene. Henneth Annun And some other Bilbo stories: "For the Road," by Alawa. Henneth Annun. "One Day," by Alawa. Henneth Annun "Revision," by Teasel. Henneth Annun "Sheathing Sting," by Celandine Brandybuck. Henneth Annun "Travellers' Tales," by Alawa. Henneth Annun.
Author's reply
Yes indeed! Those are some other obvious similarities! I've not read that book of Joseph Campbell's, though I've read excerpts from it, and of course have seen it frequently quoted. Someday I will have to read the whole thing for myself. And of course both JRRT and CSL dealt with the matters of defining high fantasy in their own scholarly pursuits. I do think that "story-externally" JRRT did not develope his notions of the general ratio of hobbit ages until later--perhaps even after publication of LotR. Yet an examination of the Family Trees does show that hobbits bore children much later in life than the race of Men, another factor that probably influenced his ideas. I am quite sure that he wasn't thinking about it when he wrote The Hobbit. But "story-internally", he's left us a puzzle, and of course, solving such puzzles is one thing that fic is about. It makes me wonder if the grudges against Bilbo go back beyond Otho to his father perhaps? And thank you for the list of lovely Bilbo fics! I have already read all the ones here on SoA, but of the others you have listed, I believe I have only read "Sheathing Sting", at the MEFA site last year--or perhaps the year before? I don't often read fic at HASA, but obviously there looks like an untapped source! Thank you so much, once more!
Antane · 5 August 2007 · Chapter 5: The Importance of Being Bilbo
Ah, those cute little plot bunnies, at least one is batting its eyes at me. I love finding out more and more as I delve more deeply into studying this marvelous tale how it all is connected, how Iluvatar brings everything together to get things to go the way He willed it. I hadn't thought of the Ring playing a part in its own destruction by keeping Bilbo young/robust long enough to adopt Frodo who would eventually play an important role in that destruction. Ah, how evil is allowed to defeat itself! Very good article. Would love to see more. When is Journey into Love going to continue - it's been forever! Namarie, God bless, Antane :)
Author's reply
I would love to see you tackle one of those bunnies! "Journey Into Love" is slightly stalled for two reasons: it's research heavy, and also I am going to have a lot of area to cover, so I will have to decide which points are the most salient--I hate to leave anything out, but sometimes you can put in Too Much Information and kind of kill the mood. But trust me, it is not abandoned!
Speedy Hobbit · 5 June 2007 · Chapter 3: Hobbit Ages
Woohoo, my age converts to 32 for hobbits! Time to prepare for my coming of age status! Adulthood? Yikes! (But of course! My friends are going NUTS over the fact that I'm going to be 21 in 3 months!)
Author's reply
*grin* Happy birthday in advance!
Lindelea · 11 May 2007 · Chapter 4: Gandalf's Visits to the Shire
Came back to read this again, this morning, while on a tea break. (Why am I on the computer when I have a kajillion things to be doing?) Since "Winter" is on the shelf I can think back further, to remember that I made a similar listing of Gandalf's "dates" in the ToY before writing "Shire". I wanted to know if it was plausible that he might have met the Fallohides before/during their migration. It might be a stretch, but he had arrived in ME recently enough to have encountered the first hobbits to cross the Misty Mountains, and might have been travelling between Rivendell and Lorien on business during that time. I finally decided that he had a brief acquaintance with the Fallohides, helping them (perhaps prompted to help them, even), and then seeing them settled, moved on to other affairs. ...which, in my world, might mean that his great friendship with Gerontius might have started with a chance resemblance to some long-dead Fallohide... (in any event, I've already given Bilbo a resemblance to Pickthorn, enough to startle a passing guardian...) It seems the Muse might be stirring, which would be nice for a summer diversion. Anyhow, thanks for these thoughtful and thought-provoking essays.
Author's reply
It's quite possible he might have come across some of the early proto-hobbits--it's clear from what he says about Smeagol that he had some acquaintance with the Stoors. I know Larner has him involved in the early hobbit migrations, and he comes into contact with some hobbits then. I do think his acquaintance with them, if any, prior to TA 2758 must have been fleeting, because he said that what *first* drew his attention to hobbits was the compassion and Pity they showed one another during the Long Winter. But that's just my own opinion, and I like the idea of him maybe helping them out earlier as well. And I've not forgotten Bilbo's close resemblance to his ancestor! I hope that the bunny sticks around--and I know with summer coming you'll have a bit more time to write! *grin*
MithLuin · 5 February 2007 · Chapter 3: Hobbit Ages
This is useful, to know what people have in mind. I don't think it can be quite true, though, because Merry-at-the-Party acts much too old to be 11 (in human years)! But if the relationship isn't linear, it's impossible to figure out, so this is as good as we can do :) Thanks!
Author's reply
Well, that's one of the reasons I think of Merry as precocious. But as I said, it's up to each author to decide how that affects social, emotional and mental ages. I feel as though, whatever a hobbit's *physical* age, he will still have the actual number of years of *memory*. Therefore, while my five-year-old hobbits will be the physical and emotional equivalent of a three-year-old, they will have the *vocabulary* of at least a five-year-old. And an eleven-year-old Merry might not quite be an adolescent physically and socially, but he has the memory and intelligence of a nineteen year old. I hope that makes sense.
demeter d · 2 October 2006 · Chapter 19: Three Cousins and a Friend: Journey into Love--Introduction
Dreamflower, I think i am of the generation of yourself, Larner and Lindalea. My first introduction to the stories was, oddly enough, the Rankin-Bass cartoon rendering of "The Hobbit". I never did get around to reading all of them then, but in Junior High and High School several of my friends were reading them, so I knew about the stories. Later Rankin-Bass did a second movie, covering most of "The Return of the King". Very Frodo and Sam centered, and left a lot out, but it did get me a bit more interested again. P.J.'s efforts were what got me to settle down and finish all of the trilogy, and I, too, have been hopelessly hooked. Fan-fiction is my "drug of choice", my main guilty pleasure. I, too have "on-line" and "off-line" days, but am constantly tempted to cheat! My favorite character is Samwise Gamgee. To me, he is the common-man hero, an "Everyman" who gets caught up in events beyond his imagining and manages to rise above them. Before I had seriously read Tolkien, I read a lot of Madeline L'Engle. Her heroine from the "Wrinkle in Time series, Meg Murry, is like that too. In the first one, she is 14, with glasses, unmanageable hair and a bad adolescent attitude. Yet she ends up flying around the galaxy with guardian angels battling the forces of darkness! Meg, and the Hobbits, give me hope that us ordinary folk can still make a difference in an otherwise big, frightening universe!
Author's reply
I really did like the Rankin-Bass version of The Hobbit, but was not so pleased with their version of RotK. Of course, there was the Bakshi debacle, the less said about which, the better! I've never truly been *away* from LotR in the 39 years since I first read it--it's had too much impact on my life for that. But my interest *had* ebbed just a bit, until PJ. Yet it was not only the movies that rekindled my interest, but also the discovery of online fandom, and of finding kindred spirits who loved JRRT at least as much as I did. "Fan-fiction is my "drug of choice" LOL! I can certainly identify with *that*! Days when nobody posts anything new drive me up a wall! The hobbits are my favorites--collectively. I don't really have a favorite hobbit--I love to see them together! I love Madeline L'Engle as well. Her books have a special luminous quality to them, and although they are somewhat topical in certain ways, they still manage to touch on themes that don't go out of style.
Raksha The Demon · 1 October 2006 · Chapter 4: Gandalf's Visits to the Shire
Excellent subject for an essay; Gandalf's story has all these hidden crannies, and the better sense one can make of his comings and goings, the easier it is to understand him. A note about the time Gandalf spent in Minas Tirith after 2983 - Faramir states in The Two Towers that Gandalf came to Minas Tirith to examine the ancient lore preserved in the treasuries, which most people are not able to read (Faramir says he can read a little of the recordds, since he "had teaching"). He also says that "I first saw him (Gandalf) when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then." Faramir's words imply, to me, that Gandalf came to Gondor once during Faramir's childhood. In my opinion, that particular visit must have been of fairly long duration, perhaps several weeks, since Faramir's bond with Gandalf dates from that time. And then Gandalf came "twice or thrice", it's implied, after Faramir's childhood ("since then") - I would think, visits of at least a couple of weeks, perhaps once during Faramir's teenaged years and once or two times after that. I think Gandalf had visited Minas Tirith in the ten years preceding 3018, and renewed his friendship with Faramir; he seems very familiar with Faramir as a man and Captain, enough to, when quartered in the guest house in ROTK, think out loud "When will Faramir return", and enough to be comfortable giving Faramir personal and public support and to know him very well. What's interesting is that Faramir, when speaking to FRODO in TTT, says "twice or thrice" rather than making a definite statement of how many times Gandalf has visited Minas Tirith. It could speak to some tension between Denethor and Faramir over Gandalf's friendship, or it could be that Faramir does not fully trust Frodo at that time and is not going to tell him everything he knows about the Grey Pilgrim's comings and goings down to the last detail...
Author's reply
"Hidden crannies" is a good way to put it! Oh that makes perfect sense: one fairly lengthy visit, followed by two or more shorter and briefer ones. As to the lengthy visit--I'd actually posit a visit of months, or perhaps even as long as a year--since he was given a guest house to stay in at the time! How old do you suppose Faramir was at the time, I wonder? He'd have to be old enough to learn from the wizard--already able to read and write and perhaps know a little history--maybe his early pre-teens? That would put his presence there sometime in the years following Frodo's adoption?
Queen Galadriel · 1 October 2006 · Chapter 2: Tolkien's Use of Expletives
I read this before, a long time ago, but didn't review. (I don't remember *why* I didn't; I liked it.) As someone else already said, all those explatives lined up like that *are* rather amusing! :) Still the list makes a nice reference. You know, I've always wondered about the "hullo". LOTR isn't the only place I've seen it. I have all seven radio dramatizations of the Narnia books and the British characters say it a lot. And where on earth did Tolkien get "dreat" and "confusticate"? LOL! A friend of mine used to say "drats" all the time, and I've come to do it as well, when annoyed, but "confusticate"? LOL! That's a Bilbo word if ever there was one! And I don't think I've ever told you, but I like your choice for Pippin's special word. :) *gasps* Oh dear, I'm conscience-stricken! I let something ("Great Valar!" I think it was) slip once and now I have to go take care of it! God bless, Galadriel
Author's reply
"Hullo" seems to be the British colloquial form of "hello", as opposed to the more American "hi" or "hey". I frequently run across it with British authors, especially when writing children and young people. They also seem to use it as an exclamation of surprise, such as "Hullo! What's this?" As far as the word "confusticate", I found this when I googled: The word confusticate is one of a family of fancified pseudo-Latinate words that were popular in the nineteenth century. It is an elaboration of confound or confuse, and is used in the same senses of either of those words. The elements probably shouldn't be analyzed with that much care, but note that the -ate suffix pops up in similar words, such as absquatulate 'to abscond; run away'; and that the -ti- rhythmically fills out the already -ate-full word confisticate, an eighteenth-century elaborated version of confiscate, first recorded with the comment that the word was used by "the most ignorant of the vulgar only." Confusticate is first recorded in a late-nineteenth-century slang dictionary, with the comment that it is an Americanism; other examples consider it either dialect or slang. http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19981006 Knowing how JRRT loved language and old words, I'm sure this one amused him. I just thought that my Pippin might occasionally want a little stronger word than "Bless me!" from time to time, so "Thunder!" seemed appropriate. Merry's special word is canon: "Lawks!" which he says at Crickhollow when Pippin splashes all the water out of the tub. My Frodo sometimes says "My stars!" or "Stars above!" And I have a nice long list of canon words for Sam, LOL! Well, I didn't mean for everybody to run out and edit their old fic, LOL! But I'm glad if you found this helpful!
Queen Galadriel · 1 October 2006 · Chapter 4: Gandalf's Visits to the Shire
Ooo! Thank you for this! It will be very helpful to a lot of us, I think. And I admire you; I've tried to go through all the info in the Tale of Years several times, but interruptions distract and I lose my place every time. I think I need to change my plans for my current really long running story now. :) God bless, Galadriel
Author's reply
I hope it will be helpful!! As far as the Tale of Years goes, you might want to check this: Dana's Annotated Tale of Years: http://danachan.livejournal.com/573731.html She's gone to the trouble of transcribing the Tale of Years, adding to it some info JRRT left out, such as the birthdates of Merry and Pippin, and the year Frodo was adopted, and correcting some errors, such as Sam's birthdate (which was incorrect in the ToY). Not only that, but she also added the years in Shire Reckoning to it, which makes it a lot easier to figure things out. And she has links where you can navigate to each Age more easily. She really did a good job, and put in a lot of hard work on it!
Larner · 1 October 2006 · Chapter 4: Gandalf's Visits to the Shire
And this had pretty much agreed with what I thought.
Author's reply
Yes, I got to wondering, when reading fics that seemed to have Gandalf dropping in all the time. It works--as long as the writers pay attention to *when* that might have happened. I've seen several fics, for example, in which the writers have Gandalf dropping in frequently during the years just prior to the Quest. That automatically makes a story AU.
Lindelea · 1 October 2006 · Chapter 4: Gandalf's Visits to the Shire
Fascinating. I've been contemplating the same thing, while working on the "Winter" story.
Author's reply
It's pretty much all there in the Tale of Years, though some of it is from The Hobbit and from FotR, it's quite obvious that while Gandalf did not spend nearly as much time in the Shire as some folk would like to have seen, he did have the opportunity to come and go more often than say every four or five years. In fact, the nine year gap just before the Quest seems a bit unusual.
Larner · 24 September 2006 · Chapter 20: Three Cousins and a Friend: Journey into Love--Part 1: Pre-Quest
I know from Christopher Tolkien's analysis of his father's writing of LOTR that the companions for the quest changed many times as the story was written, the final friendships not being settled until Sam was added to the number, not a relative this time, but the servant-laborer/friend. I doubt that in the beginning as he was developing the story Tolkien had much thought about how much younger than Frodo his closest friends were; only that once the story was well under way he then tried to develop the backstory for each of them and that for the family-families that gave birth to them. We don't know that Pippin is so much younger than the rest until ROTK, when he admits this fact to Beregond and Bergil; he then states his father farms land around Whitwell, and later he's off to the Great Smial for Took archers where his dad is Thain. Oops! So Tolkien was left trying to figure out how to reconcile such different roles for Pippin's dad. I think that the family trees were probably not drawn until at this point or afterwards in the writing process, at which time the last Thain wasn't Paladin's father but Cousin Ferumbras instead so as to give a viable reason why the Thain might also be a farmer--or have BEEN an active farmer; as well as offering good reasons why, through Pippin and Merry being first cousins, they became so close. And I suspect that Pippin being not of age as yet was first thought of as a parallel to the fact most soldiers AREN'T of age yet, most being seventeen and on up when they first find weapons thrust into their hands. Having found himself painted into the corner of the disparate ages, Tolkien wisely didn't try to explain why Frodo's best friends are SO much younger than himself--he left us to fill in the gap ourselves, IF we ever noted the disparity. I'm grateful he felt all should feel free to add to his universe; and that disparity in ages of such friends and in the stations and even geography of where and how they grew up has led to some remarkable stories written to allow us to explore all this. But the attachment of a lonely orphan to a newborn cousin with whom he lives works for me, as you know.
Author's reply
You are absolutely correct. JRRT himself probably did not give as much thought to what he was creating with the age disparities as perhaps he should have, and has left us with this lovely little puzzle. I am sure that he would be very surprised at the way, years later, we obsess over all these little hidden details that he failed to clue us in on. As you know, I like to find "story-internal" explanations for "story-external" devices. And by examining between the lines, these explanations can be made to fit into canon if carefully constructed. The "story-external" explanation is just as you said--possibly even a flaw in the plot. Yet somehow it works when the subject is more closely examined. To be honest, I think that there was more at work there than JRRT's own imagination--the evolution of the story seems inevitable as we see how perfectly it works in the end--and decisions that he *almost* made, but did not, would have been disastrous, and possibly would have meant that the tale never reached its full potential. To paraphrase Gandalf, this story was "*meant* to turn out as it did, and not by its maker."