Reviews (120)

Larner · 16 November 2005 · Chapter 2: Tolkien's Use of Expletives

A wonderful list and reminder we do tend to overdo things on occasion. But Tolkien did come up with the most wonderful expressions--"Ninnyhammer! Noodles!" Yes, bless our Sam.

shirebound · 16 November 2005 · Chapter 2: Tolkien's Use of Expletives

Thank you for gathering these all in one place!

PIppinfan1988 · 16 November 2005 · Chapter 2: Tolkien's Use of Expletives

Awesome--and excellent research as always! I will confess that I wasn't quite as scrupulous about my hobbits and their language when I first began writing. Long before joining SOA, as my universe developed more and more (and I was done venting), I came to realize that it was actually distasteful for (my) hobbits to use that sort of language. I tend to think of hobbits as a bit childlike (not to be mistaken or confused with childish, or children), so if I wanted to convey that in my stories, they shouldn't be cussing. So, I stopped. I think I got most, if not all, of those expletives out of my tales as I posted them here, but I can be lazy at times. If you or anyone else comes across any, please let me know--I would prefer to replace it with something more hobbity. Now that ff.net allows editing of single chapters, some day in the future I will go back there and clean those up, too. Thanks for yet another grand Musing! Hope to see another one soon! :-) Pippinfan

Kitty · 13 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

Dreamflower, that was very interesting and intriguing! Although I don't write fanfic myself, I end up pondering about canon or fanon sometimes after reading something. I had only read the books when the second movie was out, then watched the first two movies and re-readed the books, and some months later started reading fanfiction, so it is not always easy to separate all details in book, movie and fanfiction, although I'm reading the books for the fifth time now to keep track of the canon. There are so many details it is not always easy to remember *where* I've seen it! Your essay and the ongoing discussion in the reviews and answers has helped me to answer a few questions I had about the source of some things. But even without this unexpected help it was truly interesting, and I look forward to more of this. Thank you very much for posting this!

Andrea · 12 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

I'm very sorry! I tried to find that passage again - with no success! I found that Sam's eyes are brown and that the eyes of Tom Bombadil and King Theoden are blue, but nothing about Merry. Maybe, I made a mistake, but if I find something, I'll tell you!

Andrea · 12 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

I read this essay with growing interest, and I hope there will be updates! Some months ago I decided, it was high time to read the books again. And, believe me, with the movies and all those fanfiction stories in mind, it was as if a was reading it for the very first time! I'm not through, though, but I'm really enjoying it, in particular to look out for proofs of those theories I have in my mind. One of them is the color of Frodo's eyes :) I like Elijah's blue eyes and find them very fitting for my favourite hobbit, but is there a proof? Until now (the beginning of Book Three) I haven't found a clue, but I found a passage, where it's clearly stated that Merry's eyes are blue - and forgot to note it (stupid me)! But I have a scene in mind, with Frodo and Sam, where brown eyes are mentioned. Maybe, I'll find it again. Thank you again, for this wonderful essay!

garrett · 12 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

great essay. insightful and it looks like you know what you're talking about. thanks for posting it. R. Garrett

lovethosehobbits · 12 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

Thanks so much for this! I find that sometimes, I can't honestly *remember* what was actually written about an event or a character having read so very many fanon fics (I know, it's shameful!) and have to scan over certain chapters of the books. This helps alot...sometimes when you're in the midst of writing it is very inconvenient to consult the books. For this reason, I generally rate all of my fics AU. Most of the fics I write would be listed thus anyway, since the ideas I have are *so* far removed from the books. Good post, and very useful!

PIppinfan1988 · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

Very well done, Dreamflower! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your essay. Excellent research--but you've always been good with that. My experience with essays and writing a thesis is extremely limited, lol, so I'll settle for reading yours! I'd like to see your "musings" on the "Tookish lilt"! The Professor said something about anything remotely Celtic being in Bree or Buckland. Doesn't mean my view is the right one, but it's what I've interpreted. And it certainly doesn't mean that I haven't enjoyed reading about it other authors' tales, but it's something I'd like to see you explore. To me, if JRRT did not expressly state that "whatever" did, or did not happen, then that is where the imagination takes over, as long as it stays within the spirit of JRRT's fantasy. Did hobbits sleep in a pile (oh, yes--I did enjoy Baylor's story!)? I am inclined to agree that they probably didn't sleep in "piles", but perhaps they slept in close proximity for warmth. History indicates this to be true of humans, so I would reason that it is true with hobbits as well. LOL, I hated history back in my school days, and yet I find myself using my search engine to find little factoids that would help my stories with plausibility. I'm going to stop here--I could go on and on! I'd like to see your take on other memes! This could become a very popular place for interested authors--especially me! Thank you for sharing. :-) Pippinfan

Larner · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

This is becoming a discussion board! I, like Lindelea, took Bilbo's headship for the Bagginses from the family tree, and also saw how Otho was next in line, and assumed that part of the reason for Otho wanting Bag End was to at least have the trappings of being Family Head for the Bagginses--didn't realize he was the one for the Sackvilles, also, but then haven't read all of Letters yet. As for the other three also having lesser forms of PTSD--to me that was a given. How can anyone go through Black Breath twice, and a horrible version the second time; or looking at the Palantir and finding himself face to face with Sauron's very soul, then the horrors of the Black Gate; or watch the one he loves most of all he knows as parent-brother-child all at the same time go through what Frodo went through, then through the horrors of Cirith Ungol and the search through the tower, and finally the trek across Mordor and the last moments of horror over the cracks themselves, and then thinking they are at last dead--how could they NOT know bad dreams at the very least? I don't write in anniversary illnesses for anyone but Frodo, but do indicate some triggers for Merry's hand going numb--such as mention of the Nazgul. I find support for this in canon in the fact that although Frodo chooses to live in the heart of the Shire with the Cottons, he gives the house at Crickhollow to Merry and Pippin. That these two would discover how changed they were and how disruptive it was to live at home with the memories coming back also seemed logical. Away from others they could become lordly sorts and hide the worst of their memories behind fair seemings and fine parties; in the Great Smials or Brandy Hall they could wake the entire place with cries at their nightmares and be driven to terror at the idea that in the worst of one someone they love might try to waken them and get run through for their efforts. Sam would have the easiest time, I thought, putting all that in its place. For Merry and Pippin--they needed a place to sort out their memories and reaccustom themselves to normal life. I even have Pippin voice these fears in The Choice of Healing. So, anyway, here's more of my two cents' worth. (Actually I suspect I'm up to at least six bits now, don't you agree?)

Inkling · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

Oh, what fun! And interesting, too… I couldn’t agree more—while there’s a place for fanon, it should always proceed from a thorough knowledge of canon. I have seen that point made before in discussions of AU fics…that they should always be written with a clear understanding of where they depart from canon. And as for things that could be true, as they are not actually contradicted by canon, I have my own name for that: “speculative canon.” Not sure I have something intelligent to contribute about every fanon you mention, but I did have an observation about the first one. I fully agree with your reasoning, and in fact have portrayed Saradoc and Esmeralda (and Merry) as playing the roles in young Frodo’s life that you suggest. I like your solution of Drogo leaving a will (what story is that in?). My own solution was to postulate that, while Rory would have been Frodo’s “official” guardian, to the extent that he had one, Since the accident Saradoc had assumed the role of Frodo’s guardian, Rory having neither the patience nor inclination. So Sara is the “acting” guardian, if not the official one. And as Fantasy Fan raises the question about the Baggins relations, here’s how I have dealt with that, in a discussion of who could take Frodo off the Brandybucks’ hands after he got in even more trouble than usual: “Mad Baggins? Hardly a fit guardian for a rascal like Frodo. He needs someone with a firm hand and a watchful eye to keep him in line.” “Perhaps Drogo’s brother Dudo would take him in?” “Nay, Dudo has worries enough what with Daisy chasing around after Griffo Boffin and every other handsome rogue in the Westfarthing. If he wants my advice I’d marry off that one posthaste and not wait till she comes of age! Nay, I’m going to write to Dora Baggins, it’s time she assumed her share of responsibility for the lad.” The prospect of the last suggestion being enough to make Frodo decide to run away! Oh, and one small comment on the singing question: while I can’t think of any canon basis for Pippin being a good singer (except perhaps his modest reply to Denethor that you cite), there IS canon evidence for Frodo…in “At the Sign of the Prancing Pony,” we are told that Frodo has a good voice. Thank you for posting this, Dreamflower!

Lindelea · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

As to the question of Bilbo's being head of the Bagginses, and whether it is canon or fanon... (waving at FantasyFan) I got this by looking at the family tree, mostly, though I have a vague recollection of reading something somewhere (in JRRT's letters? related to a discussion of the Baggins name dying out, or something?). Looking at the family tree, if the hierarchy goes anything like it does on the Brandybuck (looking at who's Master) family tree or the descent of the title "Thain" amongst the Tooks, it looks as if Bilbo would have the pre-eminent position. Balbo's eldest son was Mungo; his eldest son was Bungo; his son was Bilbo and they are all at the far left of the tree. If Bilbo died without an heir the title of "head" would follow the next branch, one level up, if I'm reading correctly, bypassing Belba who became a Bolger by marriage, on to Longo's descendant, Otho. So far as I can figure, if all of Mungo's descendents died out or ended in female descendants, the title would pass to Ponto's line, and again, if there were no males to carry the title, then it would pass to Largo's line, and Frodo was the end of that line. Though the clan could be a matriarchy by ruling, the "name" passed down through the male line, so far as I can determine. An unmarried female, by definition in that culture, would have no progeny to pass the title on to. And a married female took on the name of her husband. She'd be a matriarch of her husband's clan, but not under her birth name. I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly. My brain is getting more muddled by the moment. So, no statement in "canon" that I can come up with off the top of my head, but deduction. Or is it induction? Low blood sugar does a lot to disrupt concentration, I'm afraid. Got to go find some protein and get the kiddos working on math now that lunch break is over.

harrowcat · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

I found this very interesting Dreamflower. I have, once or twice, commented on the cross-fertilization of ideas between Authors. I enjoy it but, like you, much prefer ideas that have at least some basis in canon.

Larner · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

Ooh, such a wonderful essay. The idea that Frodo was primarily tied to Esmeralda and Saradoc just seemed logical to me. They are old enough to be seen as authority figures, don't have a child at the time, are young enough to have the stamina to deal with a child (have watched many children born to older parents primarily raised by older siblings because the parents haven't the stamina to go through it yet again!), and were old enough perhaps to be friends with their Aunt Primula and her husband, Primula, after all, being the youngest of Rory's siblings. It would also add to the feeling between Frodo and Merry as being brothers, which would make it more logical Merry would seek to accompany Frodo on any attempt to escape the Shire. I've never felt that Pippin ought to have been relatively sickly as a child, and so, although I love the stories based on that fanon idea, I've not continued that idea in my own stories. However, there needed to be a reason for Frodo not to have developed the relationships he did with Merry, Pippin, Sam, Folco, and Fredegar with those closer to his own age. Why should this one who was fourteen years older than Merry have been closer to Merry than to Reginard Took, or some of the older Brandybucks, most of whom aren't named? So I took Lindelea's idea of Frodo's congestive heart failure and possible heart murmur and set it in MY version of the childhood of Frodo Baggins, the child who from the time of his parents' death is set aside and held from normal teen experiences and relationships due to misinterpretation of a childhood disability that he outgrew. If possession is nine-tenths of the law, the fact that Frodo was there in the Hall at Drogo and Primula's deaths seemed to indicate he'd end up staying primarily there, particularly as Bilbo, even if he were recognized patriarch of the Bagginses, was both a bachelor and seen as one likely to do things impulsively and unexpectedly, as evidenced by his unprecedented trip out of the Shire and the embracing of the image as "Mad Baggins" afterwards. So I have Saradoc, Esmeralda, Roridoc, and Menegilda, supported by the Thain's family and Paladin and Eglantine, overruling Bilbo. And as Bilbo recognizes that in the fragile times just after the deaths of Primula and Drogo Frodo would be negatively affected by any of Lobelia's activities, I have him agreeing, although reserving the right to exercise his options in the long run. The psychic connection is a good one, and certainly one I've exploited a bit, although not as much as some others. I was myself caught from my first reading by the view of Frodo in bed in Rivendell and the vision Gandalf had of Frodo becoming a creature of light in the end; then the vision Sam and Gollum on the stair of Cirith Ungol share of Frodo surrounded by light, and Frodo's vision of Aragorn as King; and so that idea of auras permeates my own works. Pippin did sing a good deal in FOTR particularly, and so I never had an idea of him NOT being musically inclined, although I suspect all Hobbits have some tendencies that way. That Frodo grew up hearing Bilbo's walking songs and so on and wouldn't also do some singing seemed impossible to believe, so I have him also singing sweetly, if not as splendidly as Pippin does. Pippin's greater security running across the rope bridge in Lorien indicated to me that he'd have had a better head for heights than the rest; however, sleeping on a wall-less flet would have been less comfortable for any of them, I think, save perhaps for Sam who appears to have slept solidly and without a lot of tossing about. He's the most comfortable with the idea of sleeping on the flet, but most terrified and least competent at the rope walk. Therefore I tend to picture Pippin as a restless sleeper, but comfortable with heights. As for Hobbit piles--they make a nice image. Hope you don't mind my OWN essay I seem to be contributing.

FantasyFan · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

My comments addressed what I thought about legal guardianship, but it is definitely canon that Frodo's best friends were Merry, Pippin, Freddy and Folco. It is a fact that his best friends are all considerably younger than he is. Actually, if you look at the family trees, there are relatively few in Frodo's age-bracket (Lotho being a notable exception). Since Frodo moved from Buckland to Hobbiton when he was 21, it is a likely extrapolation that such a close relationship at least with Merry has a basis in the time he lived in Buckland. Perhaps, as one of the few convenient teens in residence, he was pressed into service as a babysitter by Sara and Esme. In any case, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to postulate that there must have been a relationship with Merry's family, even if it wasn't a legal one. After all, Brandy Hall is described as "a regular warren" and Frodo "being brought up anyhow" by no less of an unbiased authority as the Gaffer; family relationships must be relatively loose. And something had to inspire the fierce loyalty of the Conspirators. I like the idea of Bilbo abhorring the thought that the Sackville-Bagginses would get Frodo if he himself was judged unsuitable and a Baggins claim was to be pressed. But is it canon that Bilbo was the head of the Baggins family at that time (or ever, for that matter)?

Lindelea · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

After reading FantasyFan's fascinating comments, and your thoughtful reply I thought I'd add my own .02. I think I come down partway between, at least so far as I'd thought it through. I saw Bilbo, as the head of the Baggins clan, as very likely taking a large part in the discussion following the death of Frodo's parents. Probably if he had not had the deciding vote, the lad would have gone to one of the Baggins families. Setting aside the close blood-ties of Dudo and Drogo for a moment, for whatever reason--and it might be a formal one, in a society, as you mentioned, that had the formality of-seven-witnesses-in-red-ink--and regretfully setting aside the picture of an elderly unmarried aunt raising a young and rambunctious lad (Tom Sawyer, anyone...?) If status goes hand-in-hand with responsibility, and Bilbo was considered by the dictates of society "unsuitable" because he was unmarried and older and might not "understand" the needs of a relatively young child, then Otho Sackville-Baggins would be the next logical choice. He is next to Bilbo in status in the Baggins clan (we don't know if Belba and Rudigar had any children, but certainly none appear on the family tree, so they are "out of the picture", so to speak), and he already has a son just a little older that Frodo. Sounds perfect, in theory, until you consider the realities of the situation (i.e. Lobelia...). I can see Bilbo, as head of the family, arguing vehemently that Frodo should stay with his mother's family, no matter what the reputation of the Brandybucks might be, to prevent the lad from going to be raised by the likes of Lobelia. As far as who had guardianship, I agree with you that the responsibility would go to the Master of the Hall, but I envisioned, rather than neglect, a sort of scenario where "too many cooks spoil the broth". Everyone is putting his or her oar in, and so the boat is not going anywhere. And of course, with so many "guardians" there is also the possibility that people were assuming that other people were watching the lad, and quite a good reason for Frodo to become one of the worst rascals in Buckland in rebellion against all the pressure of being pulled in different directions. (My mind is not quite so clear, yet, on the practicalities, but i have been trying to work out something that makes sense to me for my "bilbo adopts frodo" story.) But I do see Saradoc and Esmeralda speaking for the lad, and having a soft spot for him, and having a fair amount of influence in his life. Perhaps they don't fuss over him, but just let him be himself. In any event, there must be some reason that he and Merry are so close, and so I've postulated that it comes of Merry having such loving and sensible parents, who had love to spare for Frodo. As to young married couples without children--I was very close to a cousin and spent a fair amount of time with her and her husband when they were young marrieds. They had a great deal of influence over my life, and so I can see Frodo in a similar situation with Saradoc and Esmeralda. Whew! Practically an essay here. Hope you don't mind.

Lindelea · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

Good stuff. What do you think of the notion that Brandybucks in general and Merry in particular are seriously bothered by heights?

Bodkin · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

Is there any evidence that Pippin was premature / very sickly and spent masses of his childhood being ill? Or is that fanon?

Antane · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

This is very good! The books and movies are marvelous but it's the fans that have really deepened my love for the hobbits and enriched my understanding of them esp. Frodo and how great their love for each other. That's there, of course, in the books and movies, esp. between Sam and Frodo, but expanded so much more in stories that the books don't touch on or not much - Frodo's childhood and his love for his cousins and their love for him and how much more comfortable they are sleeping together than apart and all that and how pure and innocent their love is. The books shows the purity just as well and the fans have additionally enriched the characters. This is not to say in any way anything against the professor, we are forever in his debt for discovering these marvelous people and it is a testament to him and them that we are so blessed to have so many other tales of them. Namarie, God bless, Antane :)

FantasyFan · 11 November 2005 · Chapter 1: The Validity of Fanon in Hobbit Fanfiction

This issue of Frodo's guardianship is one I have also thought about, and my thoughts go somewhat against the fanon. My guess as to who would have been Frodo’s guardians at the time of adoption would be Rorimac Brandybuck and Dudo Baggins. First Rory: He was Primula’s oldest brother, and probably Master of Buckland when Primula and Drogo died, and head of the family where Frodo would live. (There is some controversy over the date of death of Rory’s father Gorbadoc: the family trees say 1363, well before the date Prim and Drogo died in 1380, but the story the Gaffer tells in the Ivy Bush in 1401 puts Gorbadoc still alive in 1380 at the age of 120; however, the Gaffer may have gotten it wrong, or Gorbadoc certainly might have died in the nine years since then, passing the guardianship on to his son Rorimac who was already 78 in 1380.) Despite being a Baggins in name, Frodo’s parents lived in Buckland, Frodo was identified as a Bucklander, and I feel that there would have been Brandybuck representation in Frodo’s guardianship. I think Rory and Menegilda as the leaders of the family are naturals for guardianship on the Brandybuck side of things. Rory is truly Frodo’s Uncle, unlike Bilbo whom he called Uncle.(Frodo was Bilbo’s second cousin once removed on the Baggins side, and first cousin once removed on the Took side.) Many people think Saradoc and Esmeralda (Merry’s parents, though he wasn’t born yet) took Frodo in, but at the time they were childless and only 40 and 36 years old. I can’t imagine Hobbit society giving them formal guardianship at that time - 40 and 36 are too young for that responsibility in a society that doesn't come of age until 33. The fact that they were childless I think counts against them - they are inexperienced youngsters. However, I don’t think that the fact that Frodo is a Baggins would have been ignored, in a Shire that wants to do legal niceties in Red Ink with Seven Signatures. It also makes sense to me that they would want to hold some control over Frodo's upbringing, as one of the few male Bagginses of the generation. Dudo was Drogo’s only brother, and closest living male relative. Dudo’s wife is unrecorded, but he did have at least one child at that point, and Dudo was a respectable 69 when his brother died. There is an older sister, Dora, but she seems to have been a spinster, and I get the feeling that there would be some patriarchal notion of putting the guardianship in male hands. Dudo (or Dora, for that matter, if you think she’s a matriarch) would have been Bilbo’s second cousin and Frodo's true Uncle.