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Those who Loved Tinuviel  by Marnie 7 Review(s)
L*MReviewed Chapter: 1 on 10/15/2006
Ouch. Ouch, ouch, ouch.

That was my reaction to your ending section. It sounds so hopeful, which is all the worse when you know how the story ends. Poor Daeron.

I rather liked Thingol's dream. It was quite effective. His treatment of Men in the Silmarillion seemd downright xenophobic, extremely condescending. (Though, when I think of it, all Elves are snooty. It's like a racial trait none of them escape.) The dream, though, makes it a lot more understandable. What an image, especially for a father. His little girl dying.... It was a nice and realistic touch that in all of Thingol's blameless emotions - fear for his daughter, love, agony at her dying - was one less than pure one: jealousy. I also liked the description of Men as a "strange, but graceful cross between elf and dwarf". I wonder if Men in Beleriand shaved.

I enjoyed the section with the scout, her and Celeborn's thoughts on Men. I am interested in the Two Kindreds, their relationship and thoughts of each other. Unfortunately, there seems always to be a distance between them - even in the First Age, in Beleriand. Mortals seem always amazed by Elves, their superior beauty and knowledge, and with little grasp of the downsides of living forever. Elves for their part have difficulty treating mortals as equals, with a fundamental inability to understand humanity's feelings regarding their mortality. "The gift of Illuvatar" is a fine theory, but many people, hearing it one too many times, probably felt the desire to kill themselves an Elf.

Did Thingol ever tell Melian of his dreams? And Celeborn - was Beren the first Man he ever saw, or did he see some while visiting Finrod (which, by the way, I'd love to read)? I understand Celeborn's curiosity, and that part reminded me of Tolkien's comment on Sindar and Noldor flocking to Estolad to see the Secondborn. Which must have been rather unnerving for the Secondborn, being a kind of tourist attraction.

All in all, it was a very good story and I'm sorry you're not continuing. You write Celeborn very well. And you do a good job with Daeron and Thingol. I find them more sympathetic here than in the Silmarillion. Poor Daeron, that ending is so painful.

Author Reply: Thanks for the review L*M :) I'm really glad you liked this! Yes, I found it interesting that it says in the Silm that Thingol was 'troubled with dreams' about the coming of Men - and I thought that the dreams might well explain why he suddenly decided not to allow Men anywhere within Doriath. If he knew or suspected that a Man was going to come and cause his daughter to be seperated from him for all eternity, it suddenly makes more sense :) Melian, I think, probably knew about it too, but understood that it was fate, and could not be fought against. I suspect that Thingol would have fought even knowing that it was hopeless (and of course his fighting against it helped it to happen. Poor man!)

Yes, it's fascinating, isn't it, to think of what it would be like to be a Man meeting and Elf, or an Elf meeting a Man. It's a shame it can't happen! It would be such a good way not only to find out about them, but also to find out about yourself. Mind you, I've always found Tolkien's elves to be a good way of reconciling me to the idea of the Gift of Iluvatar - their endless lives seem so inevitably, grindingly sad, and with no escape.

Sadly I'm still burned out on Tolkien fic, even after a year and a half away, so I don't think there'll be any more. But if it made you feel more kindly towards a couple of underdogs of the fandom, then I'm very happy. Thank you!

NerdanelReviewed Chapter: 1 on 4/13/2005
This was truly wonderful, Marnie. I had never understood why Thingol was so mean to the Haladin, and why only Finrod's persuasion made him allow them to settle there; but you have shown me a whole new perspective that I never thought of before. His dream about Lúthien sent shivers down my spine, it was so awful. I can definitely sympathize more now with why he was reluctant to let the Edain settle so near. I liked how you showed that perspective through Celeborn, and his opinion, instead of just saying it - that is a nice writing style that works very well. Also, a small thing, but I thought it was really neat: how the birds were so offended that Daeron had stopped playing, "The minstrel's avian audience ruffed their wings resentfully at him and began to fly away." I loved that! This is why you are such an amazing writer: you add little things like that that make the story so enjoyable, and add a flavour to it that other stories don't have. Oh, and I feel so sorry for Daeron! I also thought that Lúthien was really out of it - I mean, how could she not see how love-sick Daeron was for her? She just seemed so lost (it reminds me rather of Túrin when Finduilas falls in love with him - he just *doesn't get it*).

Anyway, you are a wonderful writer and your stories always fill me with a real sense and joy and a longing of Tolkien's world, which few other things bring me. I hope you will finish this story! Or is this the only chapter? You cut it off rather abruptly at the end. I hope you will write more!

Author Reply: Thanks for the review, Nerdanel! Yes, that little aside about Thingol being troubled with dreams about Men before ever they were seen seemed to me to be the key to why he acted with such xenophobia towards them. It was as though he knew they were a threat. It's one of those ghastly ironies - like in Oedipus - that the steps he took to prevent the disaster were exactly what enabled it to happen. Poor bloke! He never gets any sympathy from the fandom.

And Daeron's the same. Because Luthien doesn't seem to have been *cruel*, I can only imagine she was just hopelessly blind, going off into the woods and dancing for him alone, and *not* even noticing that he was despirately in love with her. And then *asking him to help her keep her lover a secret*!!! Sheesh! How majorly heartless is that? He's another character who I think is in a terrible postion of anguish, and yet gets no sympathy from the fans. So I wrote this to even the scores a little :)

No more, I'm afraid. They both angst so much that they make me depressed. So although I like them, I find it uncomfortable to write them. I'm glad you liked what there was of it. Thanks!

elliskaReviewed Chapter: 1 on 10/16/2004
Sorry it took me so long to get to this review. It has been a ridiculous week. I can't blame you for looking at your outline for Oak and Willow and feeling a little insane. And I agree you have a great story there as it is! Nonetheless, I'm glad you put this back out in this version. I liked it and I was looking forward to where it would go.

Author Reply: Many thanks, Elliska! It was a bit of a fraught decision for me, but I'm glad you think it turned out well. Glad too that you like this one. I think it'll do best as a seperate story altogether.

Thanks ever so for the support!

Marnie :-)

SulrielReviewed Chapter: 1 on 10/15/2004
so sad, and so very true that Beren kills Luthien. ...funny how different things look from the other direction.

I do think this works well on it's own and am interested to see it develop.

Author Reply: Thanks, Sulriel! Yes, I thought it was about time someone stuck up for poor Thingol. Everyone is very happy to put him down as just being an irrational killjoy, greedy father. But from his POV he's just doing everything he can to protect his daughter. "But I want to die, daddy. It's my choice!" is not usually an acceptable thing even in our modern society.

Sorry, I'm ranting :) Many thanks for the review!

Morwen TindomerelReviewed Chapter: 1 on 10/15/2004
Oh dear! Poor Daeron, getting his hopes up only to have them go smash, no wonder he carries tales. As to how Luthien can be so blind...most likely she loves Daeron like a brother and it never occurs to her that he loves her in any other way.

And poor Thingol. His dream isn't very fair to Beren - or even to Luthien who is no child and willingly chooses her fate - but it certainly explains his violent reaction to the Man when he comes.

And finally poor Beren, walking innocently into this wasps' nest!


Author Reply: Well, that and the fact that the king directly asks him - if you go by the Lay of Leithien version rather than the Silm one. And even then he only replies with a riddle. As for 'I'm going to tell your father so he can stop you from running off to the Tower of Werewolves on your own,' I think that can easily be interpreted as a gesture of concern :) It's one of those occasions when it would be insanely irresponsible not to carry tales, IMO.

Thingol's dream's not really fair, no, but I saw it as being the way the situation looked to him. Beren *is* going to come and cause the death of his little girl, after all. I thought it made for an interesting set up - it turns Thingol's reactions throughout into a case of a man who is fighting an unacceptable fate, and who brings it about by his efforts to prevent it (in a sort of Oedipus Rex way.) But is it better to just sit back and accept that your child is going to die, as Melian does, and not try to prevent it?

Poor Beren, I suppose. Though I'm afraid my sympathies are firmly with Thingol and Daeron. Somebody has to support the underdogs!

Thank you ever so for the review. This has been the least popular of all of my stories and it seemed like no one liked it at all.

BodkinReviewed Chapter: 1 on 10/14/2004
'I'll be writing one or two more things, but I have the feeling that fairly soon someone else is going to have to take over the banner of Celeborn appreciation. I'm starting to feel a little burnt out.'

No! Take a holiday, refresh your enthusiasm - take a break, have a Kit-Kat, but don't give up on Celeborn! You make it all too interesting. Stick with it - please!

Author Reply: Well, maybe I'll write those short stories that I've half fancied doing; Celeborn's first meeting with Elrond, and A Conversation with Annatar. The kit-kat sounds like a good idea too :)

Thanks so much for the enthusiasm!

merimas gamgeeReviewed Chapter: 1 on 10/13/2004
just wondering: is this a new story or another chapter of Oak and Willow? I read this same chapter on ff.net where it's listed under Oak and Willow, so I was wondering whether this is a continuation or another story entirely.

While I'm here, I might as well beg for a sequel to Seed of Old Trees. I'd love to see Celeborn find out what happened to Daeron and Elmo, as well as find out the fates of Legolas, Gimli, Glorfindel and the hobbits in your universe. You write some of the best Tolkien fics on the net, and your conception of his world is second to none.

Thanks for your stories,
Merimas

Author Reply: The situation is that I began to write the second Part of O+W - which was going to be the story of Luthien and Beren, as experienced by Thingol and Daeron, and I got as far as posting the first chapter (Chapter 17 of O+W). Then it occurred to me that really, it was so different in time period and subject matter that it was better dealt with as a seperate story. So I decided to finish O+W at the point where Celeborn proposes and is accepted - which felt like a natural end to me. That way, whatever happened to my enthusiasm (which I could feel waning daily) Oak and Willow would not be left incomplete.

It also occurred to me that Chapter 17 would make a nice little ironic stand-alone story in its own right, so I reposted it as 'Those who loved Tinuviel'.

This has the good result that (a) O+W doesn't have to have 10 chapters of Beren + Luthien stuff in the middle before we can get back to anything interesting, (b)I can - if I want - finish C+G's romance later in a sequel which also takes in the War of Wrath and other neat stuff, and (c) I can write the 'Seeds' tie-in about Elmo, which has been clamouring at me.

It seemed a winning idea all around. I just wish I'd thought of it *before* posting the so called chapter 17, not after!

Gimli and the hobbits, I'm afraid, are long dead - Valinor doesn't confer immortality on mortals, in fact it might well shorten their lives (since the mortal frame is not built to endure Valinor's perfection.) They lived out their natural lives there, but then they died of old age.

Thanks ever so for the kind words. I'll be writing one or two more things, but I have the feeling that fairly soon someone else is going to have to take over the banner of Celeborn appreciation. I'm starting to feel a little burnt out.

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