French Pony
· 15 November 2006
· Chapter 14: Journey North
Interesting that the Men seem to be quicker on the uptake than Elves or Wizards. The Men observe that Gandalf is always around when bad things happen, and suspect that he might be responsible for them. Gandalf and Elrond, on the other hand, observe that Saruman passes through places right before bad things happen, and never think twice about that. Everyone guesses wrong, but at least the Men are trying to put two and two together. . .
Author's reply
Oh, I agree, French Pony. The Wizards aren't yet paying attention to how the folk of Dunland and Gondor are beginning to make connections and seeing that as Gandalf tends to come when things are worst they might seek to blame him. That he will one day be known as Gandalf Stormcrow is now set among many men.
Elrond is beginning to make the real connections, but is distracted by the needs of the moment, I think.
But the Men of Middle Earth aren't stupid, of course.
Agape4Gondor
· 15 November 2006
· Chapter 1: Debate in Valinor
This is an incredible beginning. I've seen this tale a few times as I've gone thru this board - but just didn't feel it was something I would enjoy reading - and I do need SOME enjoyment in life what with the RW so 'interesting.'
But the disagreement between the two factions is great, the dialogue is excellent, and I really could see this happening.
Also - I very much liked the fact that you give reason as to why the Valar would not come in with 'guns blazing' to save Middle-earth. I can accept that now. It is a mind-opener. Thank you for that.
Author's reply
Glad you decided to give it a try, Agape. There had to be a reason why the Valar chose not to return to fight again alongside Men and Elves, and considering the devastation left in the wake of their last "visit" this seemed most logical. To have the gods themselves fighting and to then look at the aftermath--Belgeriand sunk beneath the waves and the whole coastline of Middle Earth utterly changed--hopefully they learned from their mistakes.
And now Middle Earth begins to sort itself out slowly to what it will know when the final confrontation with Sauron comes....
SurgicalSteel
· 15 November 2006
· Chapter 14: Journey North
Ah, plague and rabies both! Horrible diseases.
Good to see hobbits continuing to move into the Shire - and that Modoc's about to excavate Brandy Hall, if I'm not mistaken.
Nicely done!
Author's reply
Well, even though he's not going to excavate Brandy Hall himself, Modoc's descendants will have the knowledge he found that site seen across the Baranduin a tempting one, leading the Oldbucks one day to head that direction and take the empty lands between the river and the Old Forest for their own.
As mosquitoes that carry malaria are more endemic to warmer climes, I suspected that the northern kingdom would experience less of that particular illness than would Gondor; therefore there would probably be another condition Sauron would experiment with and send north once the second wave of mosquitoes were blown eastward rather than westward. And I do think that Sauron and his folk would particularly appreciate how rabies affects people, don't you?
shirebound
· 15 November 2006
· Chapter 14: Journey North
Elrond had also appeared both surprised and reassured by the news the Periannath would settle there. "I cannot tell you precisely why this word is as comforting as I find it," the Elf said privately to Gandalf before he left the company of the King, "but I find in my heart a feeling that such will in the end work to the good for all."
"You feel it, too, do you?" Gandalf answered him.
I love that little exchange. Aid and security given to these small folk will one day benefit everyone.
Author's reply
So glad you do, Shirebound. That there would be a feeling of rightness to the decision to have the Hobbits colonize the Shire just seems likely to me, particularly from Gandalf and Elrond.
Linda Hoyland
· 7 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
I like your account of the founding of the Shire,thank Goodness the Hobbits survived the dark years
Author's reply
Am so very glad you appreciate it, Linda. Yes, somehow they survived, and apparently in hiding even then. The Creator must have found a lot to love in these small children.
Kitty
· 7 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
I fear I love the chapters with the hobbits much more than the ones with Saruman, at least at the moment. The hobbits don't make me silently fuming through most of the chapter; on the contrary, I love them - but I find it difficult to stomach Saruman ;(
And I love the way you use the names to make clear who their descendants will be, changing the familiar ones just so much that it is easy to recognise them.
Well, the bad men had underestimated the hobbits quite a bit, and the hobbits showed a great presence of mind, considering the way how they first defeated themselves and then sent for help to Dorlath. You found a lovely way to connect this in the end with Argeleb granting them the Shire. Bless him - he did all of Middle-earth a great favour, even if he couldn't know it then. And Gandalf had a hand in it, too - why am I not surprised? And of course I was grinning widely about the way you invented the red ink and the seven witnesses. So it was simple coincidence what became so important to the Shirefolk hundreds of years later :D
Author's reply
Yes, the tendency to fume when Saruman is present does frustrate one, doesn't it? And we do need to see also how the Hobbits become what they become in the end, for in many ways they are the charge given to Gandalf even he fails to fully appreciate, as the Creator often keeps His own counsel. And, from a seed planted long before the gift of the Shire is made, and once again Gandalf has done precisely what was needed at the right time to set things in motion for the need that comes.
As for underestimating Hobbits--that is too much of a temptation for most folk, I think. A dangerous thing to do, of course--ask the Witch King of Angmar!
Raksha The Demon
· 6 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
Ah, the official granting of the Shire - a moment in Middle-earth history that is seldom visited in fanfic, but possessing great significance. It's fitting that Gandalf should be involved, he's got friends all over the place, and a special fondness for the Periannath.
Interesting and appropriate origin of the name Took.
Author's reply
It's a terrifically important moment in its way for the manner in which history plays out fourteen hundred-some later, so I think it ought to get some play of its own.
And when we're looking at how names develop, how ELSE could the family have earned its name? It had to be some similar situation, I'd think.
SurgicalSteel
· 3 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
I just loved this - beautifully done, and I think entirely realistic that the granting of the Shire would've been more to answer a 'what do we do with this piece of land?' question from the standpoint of the Men involved.
Author's reply
Oh, I agree. And Gandalf was able to pave the way for that land to be granted to a people that would love and nurture it and bring it to fulfillment.
Thanks so much for letting me know how much you enjoyed it.
harrowcat
· 2 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
This chapter is so full of nice little touches, like the signing of the contract with seven witnesses in red ink, that I can't begin to appreciate them all at on reading. The aversion to killing is evident even this far back in hobbit history. I love the true seeing; Gandalf's gentle priming but leaving it for the King to do the right thing at the right time and your clever use of names that act as linguistic roots for those we are much more familiar with.
Got to run off to work again and then down the motorway! Mum is now back on complete bedrest except for her morning shower and dinner. But that means being hoisted four times a day and isn't going to help the sores either! I really don't see how these are going to heal in the home environment. (sorry - not feeling very happy this morning - thanks for the lift of the story.)
Author's reply
We know the Hobbits did their best to be pacifistic; and I do believe even then they wouldn't kill unless there was no other choice in protecting their own. Frodo experienced prescient dreams, and it's likely this was true in his Took forebears; that there might have been children such as Snowdrop is likely. I know that particularly when I was younger I had my share of prescient dreams, although most were focused on conversations I eventually took part in. Frustrating to have a gift that foretold only a couple truly important happenings, neither of which I could interpet until they happened.
The Istari were supposed to be counselors, and evidence is Gandalf worked alongside folks once they were committed. I'm certain he would have primed Argeleb, and am only glad he followed through on it.
Oh, dear, your mother is in for another winter of it. Am continuing to pray for her.
Dreamflower
· 1 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
What a fascinating and plausible account of just how the migrations, first to Bree, and then to the Shire, took place.
I like the way you are showing the gradual evolution of the hobbit names, the origin of "the Took", and I liked the way the signing of the charter took place--inspiring the hobbits with their major legal requirement for official documents.
And we see the characteristics that our main hobbits will come to inherit when the day comes.
Author's reply
Oh, am so glad you like it and find it plausible. And the names would have begun somewhat early, I think. As for the reason WHY for the traditions of red ink for signatures of witnesses and the number seven, well, wouldn't such a situation as this have been THE most clinching reason of all? And once I thought of who would sign the Charter, that bottle of ink was already set to fall off the table for SOME reason. Hadda be!
And the three strains start forming hybrids leading to the LOTR-era family traits.
eiluj
· 1 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
I loved the red ink and the seven signatures!
Author's reply
So glad you do. There had to be some reason why the Hobbits came up with that legal requirement, and what better precedent could there be?
Thanks so much for the response.
French Pony
· 1 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
Seven signatures in red ink! What a clever way to explain that little quirk. I love how it comes about by purest chance and by Hobbitish fascination with bright colors. And all those years later, it will seem so stodgy and formal.
Nice use of the Hobbits' skill at shooting and throwing stones. They may look small and cute, but they have never been entirely defenseless.
Author's reply
As I was seeing the charter prepared that blasted ink bottle just had to hit the floor. And it just seemed so RIGHT.
No, folk all too often underestimate Hobbits, to their own sorrow, of course. Hobbits are a people with their own dignity and their own great strengths. And they were well designed by Iluvatar to lull awareness before doing the remarkable.
shirebound
· 1 November 2006
· Chapter 13: The Granting of the Shire
I'm so impressed by how you're showing the evolution of language, names, history, and the logical decisions that went into the granting of lands. What an impressive story, Larner.
Author's reply
I thank you, Shirebound. There had to be reasons the Hobbits ended up in the Breelands and then why some wished a land of their own; and why Argeleb II gave them that land.
And this is how names have evolved over the years as during estrangements some would change the name but not the meaning and others the pronunciation and/or spelling.
And thanks so much for the compliment.
French Pony
· 27 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
Wow! Plots, counter-plots, biological warfare! Seems to me that Saruman's main problem is that he peaked too soon. I like the Mouth of Sauron opening this, especially since you keep his origins as mysterious as ever.
Author's reply
Oh, I love that characterization of Saruman peaking too soon. We know from the appendices and Tale of Years that waves of plagues went through Gondor and Eriador--it's plain Sauron did biological warfare, and ended up having some of it rebounding on his own folk, according to Tolkien. Seemed that these were three possible ways he might have carried it all out.
And am so glad you appreciated the Mouth's appearance here. Did give him a Lesser Ring, of course....
Linda Hoyland
· 26 October 2006
· Chapter 11: Kin-strife
You vividly bring to life events Tolkien tells us little about,
Author's reply
That's the fascination with writing fan-fiction--trying to fill in gaps. And this is such a horrid part of the history of Middle Earth.
Linda Hoyland
· 26 October 2006
· Chapter 10: The Free Peoples Meet in Council
It is fascination to think just how long Gandalf and Elrond have known each other, quite mind boggling in fact !
Author's reply
Elf and Wizard have known one another by the time of LOTR almost 2000 years. Is a bit mind-boggling, indeed!
Linda Hoyland
· 26 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
You really brought the evil Saron caused home to me in a way I'd not thought of before.
Author's reply
Oh, it's so satisfying to hear that how I've written something has increased thinking about how things were done or what impact actions might have happened. Thank you, Linda.
Kitty
· 22 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
The bad guys are here ahead of their time, as this is a way of making war more common in our times. But then, Sauron was a Maia, after all. This chapter was rather depressing, you know. To know so many people died, and particularly so many innocent people ... and even more depressing is that the comfort and hygiene Saruman's innovation initially brought were abused to such evil purpose.
Author's reply
Yes, evil tends to think of things ahead of time, while good sets guards, but often fails to anticipate what evil will do next.
Tolkien indicated the plague spread north and west as well as hitting Gondor hard and rebounding on the Enemy's lands within his sphere of influence, and that throughout all lands there was much death and loss. We'll be looking next at how it hit the lands and peoples of Arnor.
I agree--Saruman offers innovations that truly help the settles lands, and they end up being used by the Enemy to cause widespread death and destruction. But, then, the Enemy has always been an opportunist.
mohit
· 22 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
This is a very good story and is also rather well written...although i think that certain improvements can be made to it so that it appears more like what really hapenned but otherwise the story is really very good....plz. add me to the mailing list if there is any : mohit.thukral@gmail.com
Author's reply
Thank you for the compliments. I'm always appreciative of suggestions to improve the writing, but I'll let you know now that hackers have made my email capabilities nill for the last few months. It's been very frustrating.
You can use the Reader button at the top of the page to indicate you'd like to be notified when a new chapter is added to a story. And once I finally get my email up and running again--if that day ever comes at this point--I'll definitely put you on the list to notify when a new chapter is added.
shirebound
· 21 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
Eeee, this is very dark and scary! But so very logical.
by acting in hope, good will be brought out of the evil all have seen here.
What an encouraging thing to think, and to say. Gandalf must have felt so alone, seeing and sensing things that almost no one else seemed to be aware of.
Author's reply
Yes, all too horrible an idea of how the plagues that killed so many throughout Middle Earth might have happened.
Gandalf's words, of course, mirror the Biblical comfort that all things will work to the good for those who love the Lord; even the worst of things can, left in divine hands, be turned around and beget far better results than any might have hoped to see. Gandalf knows his mandate and seeks to be the instrument of that good, and opens himself to the guidance that will bring him to it. But I think you are right, and he, as is true of all truly good souls, is all too often isolated among others who haven't the capacity as yet to fully understand or open themselves similarly.
harrowcat
· 21 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
Ooooops! Hit the post button not the go back toggle! To continue.....
I have a morbid fascination for things like plague, biological warfare and the medically gruesome. I have been known to do things like go for a guided tour round the local sewage farm and visit a disused nuclear bunker while on holiday! My friends seem to think that I am a little strange! So Sauron's workshops are right up my street - yuck!
Is Saruman really so self-centred that he can't see why people are keeping him at arm's length? I guess he is! Poor horses! But it only slows them up. It is not enough to stop them entirely.
Traitors dot not make for honourable companions do they? Imagine! He wants his gold back! Hah! And then the next 'reward' is plague-carrying mossies! Nice!
Trust an Orc to do your dirty work? It's a wonder that Sauron was still using them by the time of the quest!
I do like the way that you highlight the basic difference between Saruman and Gandalf. The latter works WITH people, gets his hands dirty and lets his heart get involved! Thank goodness that they didn't get to the second water supply.
Hmm you have left this chapter with a massive feeling of gloom and doom but I am still looking forward to more.
Not a good week at home. Mum went for a routine breast-screening and then got a letter the day after her birthday to go back. They wanted her at 9.15am!!!!! No chance! We got there at 10.30am. Then they wanted to know if she could get herself onto a bed in a small room full of machinery. Honestly! There was barely room for her wheelchair and no room at all for a hoist even though she was sitting on her sling just in case! They eventually managed to do everything in her chair. It turned out to be a benign cyst which they aspirated. So they don't want her back. But the bad news is that due to the carelessness of a locum carer her pressure ulcer has broken down again. I am praying so hard that we are not back to square one. I just think that she wants to be in a nice warm hospital over the Winter months but I hope not!
Hope things have settled down with you.
BTW Happy Diwali everyone! I live near Southall in London and it sounds like WW III with all the fireworks. Thank goodness I have no pets!
Author's reply
My mother was reading us things such as "Guns, Germs, and Steel" when we were still in high school; and I remember watching some historical film about the doctor--don't remember whom for certain--who realized at long last how bubonic plague was spread through fleas carried by diseased rats. Also, as I was born in Costa Rica (LONG story) and before they were sent there my parents were stationed in the Canal Zone in Panama, I read books about the digging of the canal and the problems with yellow fever and malaria, and how some of the first uses of insecticides were made there in Panama to keep workers from becoming so ill they could no longer work. Then I found a fascinating study on how sickle-cell anemia, most commonly seen among blacks, has a positive side--malaria parasites are adversely affected by the red blood cells when they take the sickle shape. Obviously I, too, am interested in similar things; and when I tried to imagine how black clouds out of the East could cause plague within Gondor my mind just kept conjuring up images of mosquitoes. And so the story progressed--you already know how I try to work real-world scenarios into my stories.
Had Gandalf realized plans for the city were missing, he'd be out trying to find out who took them and for what purpose and then trying to do damage control, while Saruman just shrugs it off and sends a curse to follow those who took them; and in the end it's the horses that suffer, as you indicated.
You know the old saying--"There is no honor between thieves." First Regil tries to get the gold back for his own use, and fails; and they he finds his own reward is to be infected first with malaria and then with a form of bubonic plague--NOT his day, is it?
And again it is the Grey Pilgrim who is in there truly helping folks. He turns up when trouble is coming; but then he stays to help fight it out. And where is Saruman? Who knows?
Oh, good grief! The testing room for examining a breast mass wasn't large enough to accommodate a patient in a wheelchair??? Where are the priorities in that hospital?
One of my best friends had a pretty nasty cancerous mass removed a year and a half ago, and is truly doing very well now, but she was awful sick at the time. I've had a mass removed, but it, like your mother's, was benign, as was true as well for my daughter (adopted). Glad your mother fell into our camp, but sorry to hear of the bedsore.
Am not certain what Diwali is, but understand that Guy Fawkes Day can be pretty wild. Certainly our dogs hate when the neighbors decide to use their guns on the local coyotes, who have certainly done numbers on my cats. Night before last I could hear the pack east of me yipping together. I'd never dreamed that my state housed such a big population of coyotes as it does. But now and then deer and elk will graze in the back field, and I love watching them.
harrowcat
· 21 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
Finally, it is Saturday evening and I have time to do more than just skim read this chapter!
I think that the formal 'King James'' tone you have given the Mouth is perfect!
Putting such a vivid description of him and including Saruman in the same paragraph really brought chills to my bones.
It was really brave/foolish of Glaurags's companion to ask how much gold!
It is amazing just how tainted a wonderful word like 'friend' can become from the wrong mouth.
Author's reply
I thought, well, Tolkien did it in the book and PJ did it in the films--let's go for it here, too. I felt it helped get across the idea that the Mouth has been very long in his master's service; and to have the old informal address be used to indicate the horrors of this ones regard just seemed right. Glaurag's companion didn't get to enjoy his reward; and as I wrote in The Tenant from Staddle, context can completely change meaning.
Kitty
· 20 October 2006
· Chapter 11: Kin-strife
*sigh*
Just when I thought Saruman did *for once* something useful, it had to help the rebells. And the consequences were horrible. Poor Ornendil.
In the end Eldecar proved to be the *much* better ruler, merciful and just. The way he treated the Lord of Anfalas must have impressed everyone.
Interesting to see how much Saruman tried to avoid Galadriel, seemingly fearing her. But I had to grin about his musings just *who* might have the third ring. It didn't occur to him the humble Gandalf could be the one, didn't it, and that was probably for the better. Don't want to think too much about what he would have done if he had known Gandalf wielded Narya.
Author's reply
Saruman knows what he is good at, but has no idea how to foresee consequences. And, as you've noted, this time they were pretty horrible. Tolkien states that Castamir managed to destroy much of Osgiliath and killed Eldecar's eldest son cruelly, and generally was pretty awful. That many who feared Eldecar would be less than his Dunedain ancestors were shocked to learn that in this case the one of "purer" blood was an intolerant, heartless tyrant who cared less for their customs than the "half-blood" he replaced seems logical. Unfortunately, Tolkien indicates that Eldecar still appears to have favored his northern relatives over many of his own lords, and so in the end he lost the chance to do more good than he could have done.
And once Saruman begins to suspect where the third Elven Ring truly is, I suspect he will be wildly jealous.
SurgicalSteel
· 19 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
Lovely descriptions of plague. Twisted of me, I know, but fic where the medical details are right just always makes me very happy!
It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Sauron's engaging in biological warfare - it wouldn't surprise me (sadly) if the 'good guys' in Gondor tried the same thing on occasion. Luckily for them Gandalf's having them burn the bodies.
Saruman is truly causing destruction on a level he doesn't fully understand.
Descriptions of the Mouth were suitably creepy - and he's got one of the lesser rings, hasn't he?
A great chapter!
Author's reply
First time I heard exerpts from Guns, Germs, and Steel (or it might have been a predecessor of the same ilk) was after its first edition was released back in the sixties, with Mom reading it aloud to my sister and me as we washed the dishes and cleaned the kitchen. Now have one of the latest editions; and I've researched a good deal on how the Nazis used disease to cut down on overpopulation in the camps, often intentionally introducing typhus. When one reads of how black clouds were released over Gondor and brought plague with them I had to think, well, how WAS plague spread? Yellow fever, bubonic plague, malaria, so many other conditions can come from biting insects and tainted water supplies, after all.
Even if they didn't realize that the fleas were carrying the disease that brought pustules, still the good physicians of Gondor and the King, many of whom were strong in the knowledge and technology and intelligence come from their Dunedain ancestry, undoubtedly made the connection between the spread of the disease and the presence of filthy conditions. In our own world so many assumed that the Jews were practicing germ warfare of some kind that they mistook for witchcraft when the goyim would become ill while the Jews would avoid the condition; having separate quarters for animals, not using thresh but instead carpets that were regularly cleaned, insisting homes be kept as clean as possible as well as persons, careful storage of foodstuffs--all helped stop the spread of plague in the Jewish quarters while the more filth-tolerant Christians would unwittingly spread the disease. It took SO long for someone to finally peg it down to fleas and the rats that predominantly carried them.
I don't know how much influence Sauron might have had over microbes and malaria worms, but he could definitely see the connection between infected lice, mosquitoes, ticks, midges, and fleas with the spread of the diseases each could carry even if he didn't understand the specifics of contamination. Multiply the carriers and give them the chance to all become infected by biting infected hosts, and you have automatic germ warfare.
I DO try to inject reality into my stories, as I think you know.
And I always suspected the Mouth might have carried one of the lesser rings of Sauron's own manufacture, before he realized he hadn't the ability to see them made so most folk would accept them.
And so far Saruman is still unwitting of how his carelessness has managed to cause such havoc.
Anonymous
· 19 October 2006
· Chapter 12: The Taste of the Enemy
Tedicus Dexius Eclectus reviews:
Biological warfare is certainly an efficeint weapon and
one I would expect Sauron to use. In fact why didn't he
use his magical powers to enhance these organisms to be
more virulent? Sending orcs to spike the water doesn't
seem very realistic. Surely by now he has learned you don't
send an orc to do a vitally important task especially when
they would be so conspicuous that close to the city.
Gandalf's idea to use the tax code to influence behavior
certainly has its modern day counterparts here in the states.
Unfortunately, its effectivness and lack of unintended
consequenses proves that this is a work of fiction indeed!
Imagine if contemporary reactions to these acts of
terrorism and use of weapons of mass destruction were
instituted in middle earth....
"I'm sorry sir, but we cannot allow any flasks, vials, bottles
or any other such container aboard the ferry due to the new
decrees from the king's counterterrorism council."
"Since these unprovoked attacks of terrorism on our land by
beings known to be associated with the Haradrim, I hereby declare
the use of military action to liberate the people of Harad and
install a peacefull monarchy!"
"A fence is the only way we can secure our border against the
tide of illegals that could be terrorists from Rhun!"
Wow Larner, your stories sure make a guy think.
Author's reply
Several of my stories reflect Tolkien's own indications Sauron did use germ warfare. The black clouds that rose in the east and brought plague not only throughout Gondor but also in many cases bounced back to affect Sauron's own pawns and allies were a definite form of germ warfare of some sort. And that he probably used more than one form of such attacks is indicated by the fact that diseases spread north into Eriador and Rhovanion and Eotheod as well as through Gondor and the regions adjacent to Mordor, and all regions experienced drastic losses of population. Had Sauron not infected his own folk along with Gondor he might easily have just sent in his troops in to wipe out the nation in the confusion while so many, and particularly in Gondor's seat of government, were so ill.
As for orcs tainting the water supplies on Mount Mindolluin--yes, Men would be less conspicuous, but probably more likely to respond to bites from malarial-infected mosquitoes, and so would be perhaps less effective here. And when so many are so ill, it's easier for such interlopers to pass through unseen, particularly if most of those likely to notice them are suffering chills and fevers that have them huddling in their blanketrolls or possibly delusional.
But I do love your scenarios on how our current government would have reacted. Spot on, and not only ludicrous but inefficient and ineffective in the end. We keep trying to secure the door after the horse was stolen and replaced by a large number of very clever rats, after all.