Inkling
· 3 June 2007
· Chapter 4: Chapter Four: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Three--Tweenagers
Miss Dora has quite a flair for euphemisms like “Goings On” and “Putting the Dessert Before the Main Course”! Wonder what she’d have to say about “Crossbow Weddings”? ;)
After writing “Purloined Mushrooms” I feel like I’ve bonded with Miss Dora, so reading this is great fun! I’d like to nominate it for the MEFAs, if that’s OK with you…?
Author's reply
*snicker* Among hobbits, I don't think it would come to crossbows, LOL! The prospective Groom would simply find himself surrounded by irate fathers, brothers, cousins and uncles--his own as well as the prospective Bride's!
Oh my, yes! I'd love to see what some people would think of Miss Dora! Thank you so much!
Inkling
· 3 June 2007
· Chapter 3: Chapter Three: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part Two--the Childhood and Teen Years
For of course, the first thing that anyone wants to know when introduced to a new Acquaintance is to Whom that Acquaintance is Related.
LOL! Yes indeed, Miss Dora has her finger on the pulse of hobbit society! I love the shrewd insight and dry humor in comments like this:
…even if their Natural Affection and Protectiveness does not serve as a deterrent, the knowledge that Little Brother or Sister is a witness often will.
This is one spinster who knows how children think!
Author's reply
Well, she's simply stating in black-and-white for everyone to see those things which most hobbits know and take for granted, just as the best ettiquette mavens do. I'm a huge fan of Judith Martin (Miss Manners) so Miss Dora is quite influenced by her...
She does. I don't think among hobbits that not being a parent would be a deterrent to understanding children that it is in our shattered society. Aunts and cousins had very nearly as much say in bringing up young relatives as did their parents. And I've always thought that Miss Dora would be keenly observant.
Inkling
· 30 May 2007
· Chapter 2: Chapter Two: Upon the Rearing of Children, Part One, Infancy to Faunthood
Miss Dora’s advice on wee hobbits is everything I would expect from her, in her tireless zeal to anticipate and provide instructions for any eventuality. I especially liked her warning to the big brothers of faunts looking for their First Gifts…a practical appeal to their own best interests. Sounds like she knows hobbit lads all too well!
My favorite line: “These are also the years when a child should begin to learn the importance of Respecting Food.” (I can just see the flourish she added to those last two words.) Yep, no picky eaters there! I’m looking forward to the chapters on Mealtimes and Manners.
Second favorite line: “I will say no more of that Subject.” Hobbits really are so Victorian!
Author's reply
Yes, Miss Dora certainly spread her net wide, LOL! She's very observant--I would not be surprised if she had not witnessed some child's "Big Brother" pulling just such a prank!
I don't suppose there were many picky hobbit children; with their metabolism, they'd be hungry almost all the time, and hunger is great for overcoming pickiness! I think that food was probably a central force in hobbit lives and society--after all, with six or seven meals a day, it means nearly all their time was either occupied with preparing or eating food!
*grin* As a maiden aunt, it would not be "Proper" for Aunt Dora to go into more detail! And I'd say "Victorian" is probably a good description!
Bodkin
· 1 May 2007
· Chapter 12: Chapter Twelve: On Funerals
Good thoughts. The sample letters of sympathy are a nice touch! As are the words about what not to say!
Miss Dora's words should be in every hobbit's collection of wisdom.
Author's reply
This particular chapter was a bit hard to write, knowing what to include and so forth. But remembering Aunt Dora's famous correspondence, it seemed to me that letters would rather be a forte of hers.
And really, when people are grieving, it really is as important to know what to avoid saying as to what to say.
I am sure that Miss Dora thought so! I could imagine her giving copies of her tome for her birthday and for Yule!
French Pony
· 24 April 2007
· Chapter 12: Chapter Twelve: On Funerals
While it is a Sad Fact that many more Scattered Family may only see one another at Funerals or Weddings, this is not an Appropriate time for merry-making, and any Socializing should be kept Discreet and Solemn.
Miss Dora has clearly never met my family. When Uncle Bernie died, we had an enormous, rich feast the night before the graveside service, at which a great deal of Socializing went on. This was Only Appropriate, because Bernie was a Known Party Animal, and this kind of thing was Just His Meat.
Author's reply
I think Miss Dora is usually writing about things as they *should* be, rather than as they *are*. After all, if hobbits were not in the habit of doing those inappropriate things, she would not have needed to tell them to *not* do it, LOL!
For example, in my story "Cousin Calla", Frodo had to give a rather glacial glare to a particular aunt, who tried to use the occasion of Rory and Menegilda's funeral to push a bit of matchmaking on poor grieving Merry!
And your Uncle Bernie sounds quite hobbity! I bet he would have got on famously with Bilbo, though Miss Dora herself might have sniffed at it!
Baggins Babe
· 21 April 2007
· Chapter 12: Chapter Twelve: On Funerals
This was a very thoughtful and moving chapter. Lots of little digs about the S-Bs - prompted by their behaviour at the funeral of Primula and Drogo, perhaps?
I do love Dora's sensible advice and her letters of condolence are beautiful.
You really do have Aunt Dora's character down perfectly.
Author's reply
Yes, she really did have it in for the S.-B.s, didn't she? LOL!
I'm so glad you think so; she rather writes herself, if you know what I mean.
shirebound
· 20 April 2007
· Chapter 12: Chapter Twelve: On Funerals
Dreamflower, this is a particularly moving and beautiful chapter. In fact, your letters of condolence are so simple and wonderful, I might use wordings such as these myself someday.
Author's reply
*blushes* Thank you, dear. That is quite a compliment.
It took me a while to write this chapter, as I wanted to make sure that it came across respectfully, and with an accurate take on what I felt hobbit beliefs might be. And it's rather a solemn subject, in contrast to those which have gone before.
harrowcat
· 20 April 2007
· Chapter 12: Chapter Twelve: On Funerals
A ream of good advice that I could have done with myself a few weeks ago.! Dora must have been scandalised by the gossip that went around after the death of Frodo's parents!
Author's reply
Yes, she was. In fact, I think you can easily see what motivated a good deal of her advice in this chapter--she is, of course, speaking of what's *proper* and not of what actually takes place. There are oblique slams against the S.-B.s and the other gossips all through this section.
Ah, and here’s your Miss Dora! What a fun idea to present her Book of Manners! I love how canonical this foreword is, with all the chief traits—kindness, hospitality, and (pre-Adventure, at least) predictability—drawn from Bilbo’s character in The Hobbit. Very nicely done, Dreamflower!
BTW, I thought Miss Dora would want to know that several times in the opening paragraphs she wrote “principal” instead of “principle.” In the third Principle it’s correct, though.
Author's reply
I hope you enjoy the rest of Miss Dora's Advice, LOL!
I took much of it from The Hobbit (especially the first chapter) as well as from the Prologue to LotR, and the first couple of chapters of FotR, and JRRT's Letter #214 also gave me a lot to chew on.
And thanks--Miss Dora appreciates the heads up! She will see to fixing that at once. She says to blame her scribe, rather than herself. *She* of course, was quite well aware of the right word! *grin*
Larner
· 19 April 2007
· Chapter 12: Chapter Twelve: On Funerals
Having so recently written the (admittedly AU) death and funeral of Frodo Baggins, I was of course highly interested in seeing just how Aunt Dora figured such occasions should be planned. I've often thought on the idea of the Great Feast Lindelea has described in her stories, and agree with her that for many Hobbits such could indeed be a probable anticipated delight for a possible afterlife.
Considering Frodo's likely upbringing by Bilbo, I suspect he would anticipate some kind of afterlife, and I'm certain he would be aware that Elves anticipated a rehousing within a body sometime after their physical deaths, particularly in light of the probability that during his earlier stays in Rivendell Bilbo most likely encountered Glorfindel. Frodo would certainly have been aware of the belief that Beren and Luthien were allowed to live again in the Undying Lands, and that Idril and her husband were allowed to sail there and knew some kind of life together that was untold in the Mortal Lands. I strongly believe he would have expected some version of the Halls of Mandos, but that he looked to go beyond in some way, which, of course, is why I tend to write the anticipation of the Presence into many of my stories.
I'm glad you appear to share my belief that both shroud and coffin burials would be likely, and that the preference for one over the other might be dictated by familial or regional preferences as well as the possibility of massive damage to the body in case of accident, some illnesses, or the beginning of putrefaction if the death took place in hot weather.
The advice is very beautiful, touching, and full of Dora's great common sense and general appreciation of Seemliness of Behavior. (Heh!)
So glad to see this addition to the Good Lady's Book of Manners. Kudos to Miss Dora and yourself!
Author's reply
While I truly enjoy Lin's concept, and think that if hobbits did, in fact, believe in an afterlife that *would* be the kind they believed in, I try to go with JRRT's express statement that hobbits had no religion. It's difficult--it goes against *my* grain, and creates some interesting gaps in Shire society--but it's conceivable. Therefore, I have them more concerned with Family, and with their memories being preserved by their descendants. It might, for example, account for their obsession with genealogy. However, Frodo was an exceptional case, having been exposed both pre- and post-Quest to other ways of thinking. So my Frodo (and Bilbo) have the concept of a possible afterlife as filtered through Elvish writings, and it gives both of them a certain amount of comfort. I think that this exposure also affected Sam, Merry and Pippin post-Quest, at least personally.
Dora, on the other hand, is a very typical pre-Quest Hobbit. She's been educated, so she knows *other* races believe in such things--which is fine for them, but she doesn't believe that those have any bearing on hobbits.
Yes, I do think that the idea of shroud or coffin would be a variable--there would be a number of factors, region and family customs being foremost.
Queen Galadriel
· 19 April 2007
· Chapter 12: Chapter Twelve: On Funerals
I'm so glad to see another chapter of this!
This is good advice, and funerals are certainly not a light matter, but I still had to smile at it because it is so Dora. Yes, she must be *sure* everyone knows *just* how to write letters of condolence, going so far as to give examples. :) I wish I could take her examples, though, as a friend of mine just lost her grandfather and I still never know what to say. What words are there to comfort such loss? None that I heard when my own grandfather died a few years ago.
Every time I read one of these sections of this book of manners, I picture some of Miss Dora's tweenaged cousins being made to study it...:)
God bless,
Galadriel
Author's reply
Miss Dora is so glad that you appreciate the common sense of her advice! ;-)
It takes a lot of thought to figure out how these matters would have been dealt with in the Shire. But much of the advice, I think, could apply to humans as well.
Imhiriel
· 5 December 2006
· Chapter 11: Chapter Eleven: On Weddings
The Bride and the Groom are only considered as a Necessary Means towards the holding of the Wedding. As for Fathers, Grandfathers, Brothers and Uncles, they exist for the holding of the Pocketbook and the moving of Tables and other Furniture, and a few other such Practical Duties.
Hee-hee. The time-honoured complaint of all representatives of the male species...
Does she have any special Preference for an Artist to make the Wedding Document?
Loved this detail; Not only does it sound appropriately "hobbity", but it's also a nice suggestion in itself.
Also the passage about "The Talk" is sweet, "Conjugal Chamber" and all. Miss Dora is straightforward without being blunt, discreet without being overly prim.
I get the feeling that Dora had been repeatedly chosen as the Bride's Witness, which subtly shows that she is a well-liked woman.
(It should go without saying that if the Attendant is with the Groom the night before, he should be Abstemious in his own Imbibing!)
Hmmmm... I wonder how many Best Men actually heed this particular piece of advice...
Author's reply
Well...yes. And it's like hobbits to simply admit that and move on, LOL!
In my Shire, at least, the central part of the ceremony involves the signing of the Contract. Even hobbit couples of simple means will have a nice document, prettily illuminated, to frame and keep on the wall of their cot or smial. For hobbits of means, they would be large, beautifully calligraphed, and decorated with elaborate painted and gilded borders. And of course, full of the complicated and flowery language which hobbits love to have in their documents!
I came up with that idea in "A New Reckoning"--the parents (or closest senior relative) of the appropriate gender, filling the young bride or groom in on the "secrets" of a happy marriage. And I am glad you appreciate Miss Dora's discretion. As a maiden aunt it would be inappropriate for her to go into any kinds of detail, but she is not completely *ignorant* of the facts.
I am sure that she *was* popular as a Bride's Witness! She'd certainly manage her duties very well.
*giggle* I'm not sure--but I do think it's good advice, LOL!
SlightlyTookish
· 2 December 2006
· Chapter 11: Chapter Eleven: On Weddings
What an excellent chapter! Miss Dora's voice is so clear and practical. Wise Miss Dora...I can imagine her relatives asking her for advice until one day she just decided to write it all down. I'm glad she did!
Bodkin
· 2 December 2006
· Chapter 11: Chapter Eleven: On Weddings
I am glad that Miss Dora has recognised accurately the true Role of the Male in the organising of weddings. (When we went to my cousin's wedding, the bride's father looked exactly as if he had been reading Miss Dora's words of wisdom...) And her advice is remarkably sensible, too - even the traditions on presents seem to have a lot in their favour.
Certainly those who follow this advice will have a Wedding to Remember.
Author's reply
I think hobbits would have been pretty up-front and honest on that score, LOL!
Hobbits seem to be remarkably well-endowed with hobbit-sense. I know that when I read JRRT's reasons for having that tradition, it seemed to me to be imminently sensible and well-thought out. A wedding should not *be* all about how many gifts the couple has garnered. It always makes me wince to hear a couple bragging about the "loot" they've "raked in" for their weddings, even jokingly. Hobbits, with their own emphasis on *giving* rather than *receiving* would be even *more* appalled. Can you *imagine* what Miss Dora would have thought of the idea of the "Bridal Registry"?
French Pony
· 1 December 2006
· Chapter 11: Chapter Eleven: On Weddings
The Occasion of a Marriage can bring out the Best in the hobbits involved--and it can bring out the Worst, as well.
Sing it, Miss Dora!
Weddings are the Province, most of all, of Mothers, but also of Grandmothers, Aunts, Sisters, and Senior Female Cousins! The Bride and the Groom are only considered as a Necessary Means towards the holding of the Wedding. As for Fathers, Grandfathers, Brothers and Uncles, they exist for the holding of the Pocketbook and the moving of Tables and other Furniture, and a few other such Practical Duties.
Amen and hallelujah!
And of course, that most common of wedding day afflictions, the Inevitable Nerves. I shall have to mention them to the next Bride I meet. "Oh, deah. Have you come down with the Inevitable Nerves, Letty darling?"
Author's reply
*giggle*
Miss Dora keeps her eyes open, doesn't she?
"Inevitable Nerves", yes, for both the Bride and the Groom, as they not only get ready to make a life-long commitment, but to do it in front of everyone they know, and a good many people they don't, as well! I do remember my *own* Inevitable Nerves, three decades later!
harrowcat
· 1 December 2006
· Chapter 11: Chapter Eleven: On Weddings
I really feel a little sorry for MISS Dora in this chapter Dreamflower. Always the Bride's friend and with plenty of observed experience but never the bride. And as a single forty something I fear that I know all too well how she feels/ She is very astute to comment that hobbit mothers may see their marriage duties as being a long anticipated task.
Author's reply
I often wonder why Miss Dora is still single--I've some ideas on the subject, but none of them have yet given birth to any bunnies, alas.
Still, her unmarried state gives her a bit more perspective and objectivity on the the subject, so that's all for the best, advice-wise, I suppose!
Mothers of any race tend to look forward to their daughters' weddings--I think, though, that hobbits are much more straight forward and up-front about thtat!
Elemmírë
· 1 December 2006
· Chapter 11: Chapter Eleven: On Weddings
Weddings are the Province, most of all, of Mothers, but also of Grandmothers, Aunts, Sisters, and Senior Female Cousins! The Bride and the Groom are only considered as a Necessary Means towards the holding of the Wedding. As for Fathers, Grandfathers, Brothers and Uncles, they exist for the holding of the Pocketbook and the moving of Tables and other Furniture, and a few other such Practical Duties.
Isn't that the Truth!!!! ROTFL!!
Those Guests who live furthest away should receive the First of the Invitations, while the last of them should go to those Guests living in the Immediate Vicinity. This not only gives Allowance for the Vagaries of the Post, but also gives plenty of time for the Guests to make Travel Arrangements.
A very wise idea indeed, Miss Dora, and another wonderful and informative chapter.
~Elemmírë~
Author's reply
*grin*
Miss Dora is a very shrewd observer, if you know what I mean, LOL!
Larner
· 30 November 2006
· Chapter 11: Chapter Eleven: On Weddings
Ah, the joys and trials of weddings. Lovely suggestions made, of course.
Author's reply
Weddings are a big deal in any culture, and I think among hobbits, they'd be very big indeed.
shirebound
· 30 November 2006
· Chapter 11: Chapter Eleven: On Weddings
It is the Fond Duty, and oft-times Long and Eagerly Awaited Duty...
*giggles* Wonderful, as always. :D
Author's reply
*grin* Thanks! 8-D
French Pony
· 27 October 2006
· Chapter 10: Chapter Ten: On Birthdays
Can Miss Dora ever forgive me for being late responding? In my defense, I've been working on two term papers.
Anyway, very proper advice, as always. Given all the rules surrounding Hobbit birthdays, I bet that this is the chapter that the book always falls open to.
Author's reply
If you can forgive me for being so late in replying. We are in the midst of selling our house and moving, so things are rather hectic around here in RL!
I hope your term papers went well!
I'm sure it's one of them, anyway! LOL!
Baggins Babe
· 24 October 2006
· Chapter 10: Chapter Ten: On Birthdays
I do love Miss Dora's guide - so very 'Jane Austen' in tone, just like those wonderful 18th century guides to the social minefield. Love the mention of joint birthdays - wonder if she was thinking of Bilbo and Frodo? I know I was!
I've always chuckled at the concept of a 'Twelve Mile Cousin'
Author's reply
I'm glad you caught that. I've always imagined a sort of Regency air about the gentry of the Shire.
Well, I would not be surprised if she had her two closest relatives in mind--I know *I* did!
*grin* Yes, I've always thought that very humorous!
Pearl Took
· 24 October 2006
· Chapter 10: Chapter Ten: On Birthdays
Now I need to visit the Shire so I can make good use of all this advice :-) This is wonderfully written and so well researched and thought out!
MEWD, Dreamflower!!
Author's reply
*grin* Wouldn't we all love to do that!
I'm glad you like how I've thought things through. Some of it is easy enough--but some is pretty hard to figure out.
harrowcat
· 24 October 2006
· Chapter 10: Chapter Ten: On Birthdays
This is delightful. Full of sense, common or otherwise! I especially like the advice concerning shared birthdays.
Author's reply
*grin*
I thank you, and Miss Dora Thanks You!
SlightlyTookish
· 23 October 2006
· Chapter 10: Chapter Ten: On Birthdays
I'm glad Miss Dora has returned and with so much great information too. This is a wonderful series :)
Author's reply
Thank you! I am glad you are enjoying it.
Larner
· 23 October 2006
· Chapter 10: Chapter Ten: On Birthdays
Lovely detail in the advice. When this is done I may well find myself printing out a copy for myself, if that is all right with you.
Author's reply
Of course it is! Help yourself!
And I'm glad you like the details. That's one thing I love to do, is puzzle out details--and that's all this fic *is*, really, LOL!