Rugi
· 29 November 2006
· Chapter 34: Ch. 23 - Third Age 3014
Okay now I know what you mean about worse stuff to come. I felt so terrible to see so many of Denethor's beloved companions die (and also see the cooling of his relationship with Theoden). But the worse blow has got to be Indis - she was such a subtle but powerful presense in the Hurin family life. It seems like Denethor is losing all of the people who helped him keep a grasp on his softer side - it makes sense and explains his character but it is still so terribly sad.
Erg. And Grima just made my skin crawl. I wanted to smack all of his "healing" potions right out of his hands.
Author's reply
Absolutely devastated me, Rugi, when I realized Indis was going to ... well, you know! And she was powerful and wonderful and a true friend, besides sister, to Denethor - she saved him countless times!
I love that Grima was only there a short time, and already, one could see the subtle influence of him upon Theoden - though Theoden did not even know it.
I wished so hard that Denethor had the sense to do what you suggested - slap that potion right out of his hands!!!
My deepest thanks for your continued support, especially in commenting! My writer's soleful heart needed it after crying the last hour I wrote this blasted chapter.
SurgicalSteel
· 28 November 2006
· Chapter 34: Ch. 23 - Third Age 3014
Ah, that stung. Poor Indis, poor Listowel, and poor Morwen.
Flux, eh? *grins* More to it than that, but will anyone else realize it? And if so, how will they find out?
Author's reply
Oh - does that mean that my symptoms and use of flux worked????
I do hope so - I was almost dreading your reading of this chapter for fear I'd not researched well enough...
And I did have them being concerned for the spread by cleaning the furniture and straining and boiling the water.
Phew - dodged a silver bullet here, I think!
Thanks so much for reading this, SS.
PS - never meant what happened - but the Muse is a fiend...
SurgicalSteel
· 16 November 2006
· Chapter 33: Ch. 22 - Third Age 3010
Well, I'm enjoying this, and looking forward to more. I agree that PJ went over the top with Denethor's characterization. In his 'Letters' JRRT states that 'Denethor was corrupted by mere politics: hence his distrust of Faramir,' and I think you've characterized him in that way: Deeply suspicious of the wizard (with reason), deeply suspicious of foreigners, deeply suspicious of anyone that the people seem to hold in more affection than himself.
Interestingly, I don't think your characterization of Denethor and mine are terribly incompatible - it's just that my particular OFC would have never had reason to have seen any side of Denethor other than the official one, would never have had reason to see the loving husband and father.
Author's reply
I agree 100% with you portrayl of Denethor as seen by Serinde in The King's Surgeon... I'm very grateful that you are seeing what I had inteneded... that Denethor was a loving husband and father...
I wish I could understand exactly what Tolkien meant by that line 'corrupted by mere politics'- I did not see him, in LOTR, as corrupted... I saw a character who fought against extreme odds, extreme evil... and in the end... when he had given his very breath (his sons) - he collapsed.
SurgicalSteel
· 16 November 2006
· Chapter 29: Ch. 20 - Third Age 2997 - Part One
Oh, dear - poor Faramir...
SurgicalSteel
· 16 November 2006
· Chapter 25: Ch. 18 - Third Age 2989 - Part One
And you've neatly laid the foundation here for why Denethor favors the older son over the younger - the younger reminds him too much of his lost wife.
Author's reply
Hi SS - so very glad you found this but expecially for your kind comments.
As for Faramir - yes, somewhat like his lost wife - but I think more like Denethor himself... Denethor doesn't have the best self-image... he wishes he could be more like Boromir, Amdir, Thorongil.... and now his youngest is not the warrior Denethor thinks Faramir should be and which he feels Gondor needs so desperately....
SurgicalSteel
· 16 November 2006
· Chapter 20: Ch. 14 - Third Age 2980
You've definitely laid the seeds here for Denethor's future bitterness toward the man once known as 'Thorongil.' And poor Finduilas!
SurgicalSteel
· 16 November 2006
· Chapter 18: Ch. 12 - Third Age 2976
Interesting here to see the paternal disapproval still so strong - sadly, Ecthelion's suspicious of the wrong folks. Rather than being suspicious of Dol Amroth, he should be suspicious of the Easterlings he's recruited.
SurgicalSteel
· 16 November 2006
· Chapter 13: Ch. 9 - Third Age 2953 - Part Two
Horrible way for Morwen to die - and interesting that Denethor's stopped thinking of his father as his father.
SurgicalSteel
· 16 November 2006
· Chapter 11: Ch. 8 - Third Age 2948 - Part Three
Interesting indeed - twisted family dynamics, a very sympathetic Denethor.
SurgicalSteel
· 16 November 2006
· Chapter 4: Ch. 4 - Third Age 2942
Happened across this story this morning - you're doing a very nice job of showing that Denethor likely started out as quite a nice young man, but boy his relationship with his father is twisted.
Author's reply
Hello SS - I cannot believe I never saw this comment - and especially that I didn't respond to it! Shame on me! And thank you.
Just an FYI - the tale is done now - only about 7 years later - a short epilogue will be posted within the next few days....
Bless you - and hoping that now this is done I can go back and read about a favorite 'healer' and her exploits!
Rugi
· 14 November 2006
· Chapter 33: Ch. 22 - Third Age 3010
Interesting (and melancholy) chapter. I really felt for Indis - her seperation from her husband and her inability to reach or help those she loves.
I am so impressed by how you manage to show Denethor's love for his sons while simultaneously showing how his relationship with them is being strained by his burdens (and the palantir). Particularly in Faramir's case, where Denethor's deep affection and abiding love are at war with failure of understanding and suspicion. You don't turn Denethor into a cruel man who doesn't love his child nor do you make him into a softy who suffered a lapse in judgment.
You also do good work with Faramir and Boromir - both in portraying their relationship and in revealing by their actions what their respective strengths are.
I am so excited to read more.
Author's reply
10,000 thanks for your kind comments Rugi...
I don't believe any family decides to 'break apart' - I've seen it happen so many times in the RW...
My own family struggled but are finally reconciled... friends' families have gone thru 'change' also... and I pray they will reconcile.
The three men of Gondor did not have time to reconcile... just to survive.
The next four (and last) chapters are heart-breaking in the level of devastation of the line of the House of Hurin.
Raksha The Demon
· 5 October 2006
The sad pattern of the relationship between Denethor and Faramir and Mithrandir is already in evidence - Denethor pushes Faramir away, Mithrandir welcomes Faramir as friend and pupil, Faramir admires and trusts Mithrandir (though not to the exclusion of his father or anyone else), and Denethor gets more annoyed.
And Denethor is exhausting himself with palantir usage; while Indis correctly notes that a network of scouts and spies would serve him as well (or better)...
Good chapter.
Author's reply
Almost wish I hadn't started this. I am becoming way too close to this family. I hate to see the direction they are going in... if only there were some surcease!
Author Reply: Hi, Raksha,
Your Faramir wanted a last word for 3002 - I just added it. But he is demanding!
Rugi
· 4 October 2006
Another great chapter - though very sad of course. I love that we got to see a lot of the three Steward-men. What struck me this time around was how well you managed to show how a family, particularly a powerful and busy family, can still hurt each other through misunderstanding and assumption. I love that you manage to show Denethor as simultaneously vulnerable/insecure and frighteningly powerful - it's an interesting combination.
Author's reply
Thanks Rugi - we are finally getting to the time when interaction between the three will become more commonplace.
I most appreciate your thoughts on this - they help to clarify mine!
Rugi
· 14 September 2006
· Chapter 31: Ch. 20 - Third Age 2997 - Part Three
I just found this one here. I really love how you manage to balance so many characters.
I am also very impressed with the dynamic you've created between Denethor and his sons. There is so much going on between Denethor and Boromir, Boromir and Faramir, Denethor and Faramir, and all three together. You show how Denethor's past relationship with his father affects his current one with his own children. You show that he was a good and competant Steward being ground down by a difficult life. I can't wait for more.
Author's reply
Thank you so much for your reply, Rugi - I am most grateful.
I so wish I could be writing totally about Boromir and Faramir - but that is not what the muse decided to write. I'm very glad that the small snippets are enjoyable for you.
As for Denethor - I love the phrase you use - 'ground down by a difficult life' - it is perfect. And just what I have been about since I started writing this thing. I can't believe that this wise man suddenly collapsed at the very end - I believe that it is the 'grinding down' that has contributed... along with a lot of other factors.
Unfortunately, there will be much more grinding down.
Again - my deepest thanks for your reply!
French Pony
· 14 July 2006
· Chapter 31: Ch. 20 - Third Age 2997 - Part Three
It seems that I did not catch up a moment too soon!
Your battle writing here is just fantastic. It's broad enough in scope that we get a good idea of what's goint on, yet detailed enough to give a sense of great intimacy with those soldiers in the thick of the fight. That's not easy to do, and you did a brilliant job at it.
Author's reply
Bless you and thank you!
French Pony
· 13 July 2006
· Chapter 30: Ch. 20 - Third Age 2997 - Part Two
Finally, Denethor gets around to explaining why he doesn't want Faramir to associate with Mithrandir. But he explained to the wrong son. This is something he should have told Faramir, and should have told him a long time ago. But, of course, he isn't really much of an explainer, and probably prefers to explain things to the son who won't ask him any inconvenient questions.
And even Denethor is beginning to see Finduilas as weak. Sigh. He'd really have been better off with Melanie Hamilton.
Now, as for this ending. . . Denethor, having dawdled up on the mountain with his sons, who are probably needed in the barracks, hears of an impending attack, rides hell for leather over the plains to the point where his horse breaks a leg (presumably Denethor manages to leap free just as it falls), euthanizes it, and then rides off on Faramir's horse stranding Faramir on the Pelennor? What a stupid thing to do. Denethor is an experienced enough soldier that he should know better than to do that. If he needs to get home, he should take Faramir's horse, but have Faramir ride behind Boromir. You Do Not Strand A Soldier.
Author's reply
Isn't it always the truth that it is easier to tell someone else your fears than the one who actually needs to hear it!
As for the ending - please note - the men are coming from Mindolluin. They have used the south gate to get into the Pelennor. They are riding very close to the city of Minas Tirith itself. I don't see any problem with leaving his son there - the family has even picknicked in that area before... so it is a matter of expediency. Boromir must be off to Osgiliath. Denethor is desperately needed in Minas Tirith. It is not a huge danger to leave Faramir there. IMHO - the Pelennor in this area - and further north on the way to the North Gate - are relatively safe in that they are within a stone's throw - so to speak - of the city itself. Also, Harlond is very close and that seems to have still been a safe harbour.
As for Denethor dawdling on the mountain - the ceremony needed to be completed. They were at least twelve hours away from the Great Gate. Another hour would make no difference. Gondor needed Boromir to complete the ceremony.
French Pony
· 13 July 2006
· Chapter 29: Ch. 20 - Third Age 2997 - Part One
Ah, it's happened. Denethor has turned into his father. He's got the inconsistency, he's got the paranoia, he's got the snap judgement that refuses to let itself be swayed or mitigated by actually looking at the person being judged, in this case Faramir. But Denethor seems to be aware of this aspect of himself in a way that Ecthelion never was. He can see perfectly well that he is treating Faramir the way his own father treated him. He can see that it hurts Faramir and that it hurts him. And yet he keeps on behaving as his father did. I think that, ultimately, is what keeps Denethor from greatness. Had he struggled against his behavior patterns, or had he never been aware of what caused them in the first place, that would have been something different. But here, he is cruel to Faramir, recognizes that he is being so, recognizes why he is being so, and still neglects to do anything about it. That is a man who deserves what he has coming to him.
Author's reply
I think you have hit it on the nose here, French Pony. He will still be trying to not be his father's son, he will still be trying to change, but Faramir's actions (whether right or wrong) lead to tragedy - for they are viewed askance by his father and cause a deep rift. Again, we go back to the trust issue.
I sincerely wish it was different for my beloved Steward.
French Pony
· 13 July 2006
· Chapter 28: Ch. 19 - Third Age 2990 - Part Two
Denethor certainly is a highly-strung guy. He passes judgement on almost everyone he sees, and rarely does he reconsider. Woe be unto those he does not like. Indis and Boromir and, to an extent, Listöwel, seem to be the only people he loves unreservedly. Even Faramir is fading into second-best in his father's mind.
Interesting that the squires have public training. I can't imagine that it draws much of a crowd, but probably a few parents on a semi-regular basis.
Author's reply
Sorry - but I based the squire practices upon my own watching of at least 10,000 basketball games for my youngest, the over 4,000 football games for the middle son and the hundreds of swim meets for my daughter. The custom of parents watching their children must have come from somewhere! LOL
Trust is a very fragile commodity. He does trust Theoden, which will be a problem further along.
As for Faramir - Denethor's deep distrust of wizards will cause myriad problems.
French Pony
· 13 July 2006
· Chapter 27: Ch. 19 - Third Age 2990 - Part One
Intriguing -- Denethor is beginning to show the same sort of paranoia that troubled Ecthelion, only directed at Adrahil this time. He seems to treat Adrahil as a foreign ruler. I wonder what the relationship of Dol Amroth to the rest of Gondor is. Certainly, the Prince of Dol Amroth is a poo-bah of nearly equal rank to the Steward, and that may make Denethor feel threatened all on its own.
And yet Adrahil has enough loyalty to show up for Boromir's ceremony and present him with some very valuable antiques. If the sword and baldric are indeed of Elven make, and no one in Gondor has seen an Elf since the Last Alliance, then those items must be millennia old and of superb workmanship to be in such usable condition after all these years.
Faramir has found himself a friend, I see. This does not bode well for his relationship with Denethor.
Author's reply
You might be right about the paranoia - but I considered poor Adrahil's response to Finduilas' death. It must have been terribly hard on him. I cannot believe Denethor and his relationship was strengthened by the death - death usually either brings families closer or further apart... I think the family of Denethor was torn asunder by her death.
As for their relationship - I consider Belfalas a fiefdom of Gondor - therefore, under control of the Steward. So even though Adrahil's title is Prince, I think Gondor ruled Belfalas and Adrahil answered to the Steward (as holder of the Rod until the King came).
I remember vividly the comments that Beregond (?) makes to Pippin when the armies from the lands and fiefdoms come to help Minas Tirith. They are few because their rulers felt they needed to guard their own lands. That thinking threatened Gondor and therefore threatened Denethor.
As for Faramir and the wizard - well, it will not be pretty!
French Pony
· 4 July 2006
· Chapter 26: Ch. 18 - Third Age 2989 - Part Two
The wedding has been a welcome respite for this fractured family. Being in such a different setting seems to allow Denethor and the boys the freedom to let down their barriers and talk freely with each other. This is a time that they will treasure against the problems they'll encounter later in life.
Author's reply
It's funny, French Pony, but even in the Real World - it seems the only time people have a chance to talk is when they get away from their normal environment.
I cannot see the people of Gondor and Rohan as separate. Especially with the love Thengel had for Gondor and the fact that he continued the speech of Gondor in his own kingdom.
I'm glad they have weddings - there are too many funerals - and it is a joy to write them.
('course - after I wrote this chapter, I got socked over the head by Indis (Denethor's sister) who insisted I write a story for her - that AU one took off and was really difficult to write (My Sword Sings).
Thanks for your continued support - you are awesome!
French Pony
· 4 July 2006
· Chapter 25: Ch. 18 - Third Age 2989 - Part One
It's too bad that so few people in Middle-earth remarried after a spouse died. Denethor and Listöwel seem to be such close friends. They've both lost spouses, and Listöwel is so good with the boys. They'd be perfect for each other, and remarriage might have saved Denethor from a great deal of grief later on in life. But it is not to be.
I love that you show how, even in the midst of tragedy, life goes on. People still fall in love and get married, and the world continues to turn.
Author's reply
I'm glad you noted that too, French Pony. It is disconcerting. I guess the professor never would consider marrying if his 'Luthien' passed - his mom never remarried either. Hmmm...
It would make it easier to write if Gondor had such a history - but since it doesn't - I'm stuck!
French Pony
· 4 July 2006
· Chapter 24: Ch. 17 - Third Age 2988
Whoa. . . Life is certainly tearing Denethor a new one here. Finduilas's decline is swift and frightening. Something similar is happening to the mother of one of my friends, and it's both frustrating and scary. You can see where a decline like that is leading, but there's no sure way to stop it. The painted beach room was a good try, but far too late.
I think Denethor is already beginning to become a little bit unglued when he refuses to attend Finduilas's funeral or even mention her death to her children. That's a big dose of denial right there. And poor Amdir. He's been living on borrowed time ever since the fire anyway, but his loss so soon after Finduilas is just going to break Denethor apart.
Author's reply
I am finding that I am very frustrated in trying to speak to my readers about Denethor. He is enduring beyond normal endurance. My heart goes out to him. I cannot feel anything but a great sorrow for the man.
And worse yet will be what happens to what is left of his family!
We still have more than twenty years before Denethor 'loses' it entirely.
xiaoweisan
· 4 July 2006
· Chapter 29: Ch. 20 - Third Age 2997 - Part One
LOL. Why did my(our) sweet little Faramir suddenly grow into a young man?? He met an elf in the last chapter, and now he was fifteen! Moreover, the clash between Faramir and his bad-tempered father had begun. Denethor might not be a monster, but he was a terrible father to Faramir. In the first place, I cannot imagine any father with more sense than a donut would become angry just because his son asked about the purpose of a riding. Second, Denethor favored his first-born too much, and I find the unfairness is hard to tolerate. If my own father does that, I will simply ignore him and refuse to speak to him for at least one day.
Besides, it's really, really bad to have a parent who confuses CONTROL with LOVE. I never love Denethor, but tonight I am sick of him.
Author's reply
I was tempted to write every year of this age - but really have to cut off some parts. Life goes on and children grow up. Yes, Faramir is now 15 and in the service of Gondor. Once again, time will fly.
I am so very sad that you feel that way about Denethor - I have tried my best - but must be failing writing this miserably - if you are sick of Denethor.
His anger about Faramir's questioning is because he needs (due to his own upbringing) support from those he loves. Any questioning of his motives reduces him to Ecthelion's unloved, unaccepted, useless son. He has tried to overcome this - but he cannot. He thinks he has.
As for Boromir - the fate of Middle-earth (in Denethor's eyes) rests on Boromir. Unfortunately, one man cannot hold the entire world's destiny in his hands. It will be a task that is too great, even for Boromir.
French Pony
· 4 July 2006
· Chapter 23: Ch. 16 - Third Age 2984
Farewell to Ectheion, full of piss and vinegar right till the end.
Finduilas was a good sport to go along on the trip to Osgiliath. I think she's right -- she did need to see more of Gondor, more of life, than just the City, and she probably would have benefited from more trips earlier in her marriage. I'm glad she found the game set. That was something that made Denethor truly happy in life, and now it comes as a gift again, this time from his wife.
But she's back to her old hysterical ways by the end.
Author's reply
First off - I love your assessment of Ecthelion's death - great phrase!!! He was no diplomat in my eyes! No real father either.
As for Finduilas and her hysteria. I wonder what it would be like to come from a great and peaceful city like Dol Amroth, perched high upon the sea - beloved daughter of a Prince of Numenor, with a tremendous history behind her - then come to a city that was ever on the brink of destruction, with a volcano spewing every now and again, causing earthquakes and such. And a husband who who not accepted by his father, who had to fight for his own place, who knew that one would come along some day to take his only sense of purpose, steal his sons' birthright... etc. etc. etc. Not a happy place to live, nor a very uplifting place to live.
French Pony
· 4 July 2006
· Chapter 22: Ch. 15 - Third Age 2983 - Part Two
I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Ecthelion here, but I think he's on to something when it comes to Finduilas. Her physical frailty and reticence reminds one of Melanie Hamilton, but she lacks the unbreakable steel spine that made Melanie the survivor she was. Finduilas also strikes me as a woman who had more help than was good for her in raising the boys -- motherhood tends to make women more confident and sure of themselves, but Finduilas has gone in the opposite direction, unable even to face reading to wounded soldiers or hearing the truth about Denethor's wound. She may be beautiful, but a steel magnolia she ain't.