The Acceptable Sacrifice by Larner
Breon Briarwood · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
*grabs hankie* Crying again!
Author's reply
I can send you a virtual box of tissues, if you'd like. ;-> The first few days must have been unbelievably difficult to process, I'd think. Thanks for the response.
PIppinfan1988 · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
"Did you not realize that only if you destroyed yourself could you hope to destroy It? You knew It had taken you so very deeply that you could no longer willingly give It up--that to see It on the hand of any other than yourself would drive you mad. That is why you intended to throw yourself into the Fire with It, was it not?" That is so awesome--JRRT talks about this in one of his letters, naturally, I'd have to re-research to give the exact number, but it's there. He mentions mercy and sacrifice in this letter in describing the outcome of Frodo and the Ring--he was answering a reader who remarked about Frodo "failing" at Mt. Doom. JRRT gave a host of underlying reasons as to how Frodo truly *succeeded*. I don't know whether or not you've been inspired by that, but I so enjoyed reading JRRT's response in that letter, and I was reminded of it when I read this tale. Absolutely wonderful! Pippinfan
Author's reply
If you read some of the responses I've done below, you'll see I was indeed inspired by Tolkien's own letter. I wanted to see how I could get it into this story; and certainly I've hinted in other stories that this was the strategy Frodo had considered most strongly. But, from Cirith Ungol on, once he snatched the Ring from Sam, this is undoubtedly one of the few workable ideas I suspect Frodo could have thought on. Glad you appreciated how I worked it into the story. But all three were necessary to see the end of the Ring, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, and I'm glad only one died there. And finding that the same forgiveness he gave Gollum now needs to be applied to himself would be difficult.
PIppinfan1988 · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
"Iluvatar does not rejoice in burnt offerings, but in living sacrifices." Wow....I am literally speechless--almost. Awesome...wonderful...amazing. I'm going further for more. What a wonderul beginning! Pippinfan
Author's reply
A small quote from the psalms twisted slightly to fit Middle Earth. And a thought I'm certain influenced Tolkien to send Gandalf and the Eagles to rescue Frodo and Sam and possibly Gollum as well, so that they could realize just what that concept means. Glad you like the beginning.
French Pony · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Well, that was an interesting twist. It certainly explains why Frodo ended up being something of the odd man out with his pre-quest bachelor ways. That he was able to resist the temptation for so long says a great deal about his strength of character. And I love how he's grouchy about his weakness and his food at the beginning. That's how we know he's improving, when he can be grouchy about his progress.
Author's reply
Well, the Ring was created to augment personal power over others, and so how was it that Frodo and Bilbo, once they got the Ring, would have failed to notice the fairer sex? And in spite of the popularity of Frodo as gay in much fan fiction, I really doubt that would have been true--not in Tolkien's world, I doubt it seriously. So, instead the Ring would have coupled sexual attraction with visions of rape and sadism, I suspect, as that was the type of domination it was created to augment; once it realized these Hobbits automatically went "NO WAY, MAN!" it would have probably sought then to squash attraction and thoughts of physical love completely. It might tolerate close relationships with friends; but the intense emotional impact of physical love would have been totally repugnant to the Ring without it trying to destroy the pleasure and sharing totally.
Armariel · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
I like the mithril shirt being the central image here, and symbolic of his once hidden spirit being brought into light. It *was* made for a prince, right?
Author's reply
Yes, the prince who would help defeat Sauron, as Tharen Thranduilion told Aragorn in The King's Commission. It has been fun weaving that thread into this story now! Thanks for bringing that up--was wondering if anyone would remember!
SlightlyTookish · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
I really love how you've written Frodo's awakening scene. It really must have been a shock for him to realize that he was alive! I also love that he thinks he should have carried the ring himself into the fire. I'm sure that's what he would have done, had the ring let him. And all the angst and guilt he's feeling is very appropriate. I'm looking forward to reading more :)
Author's reply
I try to keep most of the angst I write appropriate in nature, without our favorite characters always being ill, except in Frodo's case I suspect that spider bite would have been far more serious than Tolkien represented it. He knew he couldn't bear to see anyone else with the Ring from the time he grabbed it from Sam in the tower of Cirith Ungol. And as he stood over the Cracks of Doom it would have confirmed his realization he couldn't just let it go, either. I suspect that from Cirith Ungol on he'd have realized the destruction of the Ring would cost his life. However, I sincerely doubt that the Ring would allow that. "Oh, no you don't--this is MY place and now it's MY rules! You put me on and march out the door there and wait like a good little boy, thinking you can now bust those Nazgul when you haven't enough strength and control to even make yourself visible to most folk. But they'll see you, take you out, and deliver you and me to my REAL master!" Thanks so much for the feedback.
Antane · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
Larner, thanks for this story! I, too, must have missed yesterday that it said in progress because I thought it was a rather abrupt non-end but here's more so that's cool. Now, do you think you can come over and tell my mom and sister all this? My mom hasn't read the books though she's seen the films and has no idea how much Frodo suffered emotionally/mentally/spiritually and she and my sister think he only was troubled twice a year and was fine the rest of the time and we are just making the rest up. But we aren't! Namarie, God bless, Antane
Author's reply
I doubt he felt bad all the time or even every day; but I suspect that as he first recovered he had very bad days, that they got sufficiently bearable to get home again, but that then he'd start to deteriorate, particularly after the second bout on October sixth. But I truly believe neither the spider bite, which was inflicted by the daughter of Ungoliant herself, nor the Morgul wound would ever truly heal, and that his physical as well as his psychological and emotional health would eventually begin to deteriorate as a result. My husband was mortally ill for well over a year before he finally died, and I know he had very good days and then several in a row when he was physically and emotionally depressed almost to the point of suicide. I can see that with Frodo, particularly in response to the spider bite. It was a special on long-term research of spider bites that led me to write "The Choice of Healing," after all. Such things can cause cardiac, digestive, auto-immune system, and joint deterioration, among other things. Thanks for the feedback.
TithenFeredir · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
Oooo, this was very powerful in a quiet sort of way. For Frodo to feel terribly out of place in the role of the hero seemed very in character, but then you go on to reveal how deeply his ordeal damaged him--his loss of innocence and his terrible guilt. The idea that he planned to throw himself into the fire was chilling. Wow. ~TF
Author's reply
He'd have had to have realized how hard letting it go would be after he grabbed It from Sam in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, I think. And he didn't believe that he and Sam would be able to get out of the way in time once it did go into the fire, as he said just that to Sam when (book)Sam spoke of rationing food and water for the return journey, before he, too, accepted this was most likely a suicide mission. So I suspect that Frodo started considering this strategy fairly early on. Thanks for the review!
Kitty · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
One prince has at this time been raised to the throne; let the other two be brought forth to stand beside him, those intended to bring him to that great seat . Frodo may not understand this at the moment, but I do :) Nice connection to the other fics! The discussion between Frodo and Gandalf was quite intriguing. Gandalf was right in so many ways. Sadly he couldn’t erase Frodo’s feelings of guilt enough to overcome the Quest and remain well and hale in Middle-earth in the end. Well, at least Sam got his wish fulfilled to know if songs would be made about them! He deserved it so much. And he was probably more at ease with this praising than Frodo, who was obviously quite confused.
Author's reply
I suspect that from the moment Gandalf fell in Moria the Ring would have started seriously messing with Frodo's mind, with perhaps some easing while they were in Lorien. And the closer they came to Mordor and the weaker Frodo became physically, the worse the manipulation he'd have known from the Ring. By the time he awoke he'd have been totally confused indeed! And as the physical symptoms of his ordeal made themselves more obvious he'd find himself overwhelmed at times, particularly that first day. I mean, this poor hobbit has truly been to the brink of the Pit itself, and the first thing they do is dress him up as a prince and whisk him off to a feast he most likely can't even properly digest? Poor Hobbit! Little time even to allow him to digest the fact he IS alive after all!
Kitty · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
Poor Frodo, it isn’t easy to come to terms with what happened. To go on a suicide mission, lost consciousness in the devastation on Orodruin and then to awake and find himself alive must’ve been quite strange. It knew your heart, Frodo Baggins--It knew you intended to destroy yourself to destroy It. There where Its power was strongest, do you really believe It would have allowed that?” You know, that is only too true! Although Frodo may hesitate to acknowledge it. Sometimes I wonder – if Gollum hadn’t been there, and Frodo wasn’t able to destroy It, what then? Would Sam have been forced to grab Frodo and jump with him in the Orodruin? Frodo should be glad it didn’t come to that. Anyway, it’s certainly an interesting new plot!
Author's reply
Tolkien himself explored some of these "what-ifs" in his letters: if Gollum had truly repented he'd still have taken the Ring, even if by violence, and would have jumped in himself to spare Frodo instead of accidentally falling in; perhaps Sam might have tried just that, if he'd been able to figure out precisely where his invisible master was. I suspect that from Cirith Ungol on Frodo would have known the only way to truly get rid of the Ring was to jump in with it, and I suspect he'd have been glad Sam wasn't there to see him do it when he first went in, just before the Ring took him completely. Once that happened, everything else was just supposition. I hope Frodo never thought of the idea of Sam grabbing him and both of them falling into the fire. I suspect such an idea would have destroyed him completely.
Dreamflower · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
You saw truly--to destroy the Ring would cost a life; had you taken It into the Fire as you’d purposed, it would have cost three lives and not one, for he would still have died, and to less purpose; and Sam would not have left the Sammath Naur without you. And this is what Frodo truly needed to realize, and what he had such a hard time accepting...
Author's reply
You have said it, Dreamflower. And congratulations on all your awards! I'm tickled pink!
Pearl Took · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
The hero who doesn't see himself as a hero. Like most of us (me most deffinately included) Frodo is focusing on his imperfections. It isn't easy to see that often even our "failures" are important. This is so well done :)
Author's reply
Thank you, Pearl Took. I know what you mean about focussing on imperfections--a lot of us do it. Thank you for appreciating Frodo's lesson in this chapter.
Iorhael · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
Frodo should not feel so unworthy. Poor him. Facing all the Gondor people will be hard for him.
Author's reply
There was something in him that started the depression that in the end drew him out of Middle Earth completely, and Tolkien himself speculated it was a skewed understanding of what his sacrifice was meant to be and how important he was to the rest of the world. That and the continuing problems with the shoulder wound that WOULD NOT heal and other memories that kept resurfacing at regular intervals would work on one another, the depression making the physical bouts worse, and the physical problems aggravating the depression and spiritual malaise. No, he shouldn't feel unworthy; but so many survivors of traumatic events do feel just that guilty. It's a problem, but not an uncommon one. Thanks so much for the feedback.
harrowcat · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
This is great again Larner. Do I hear overtones of the Prodigal Son in this? I have often wondered whether he was happy at being hailed as the returned Son brought back into life. After all, he came back asking forgiveness and wanting to be but a servant. Your 'foreign voice' is so wise. I am glad that Frodo listens to it - eventually. By the way, I agree about our upbringing. Perhaps it is that which helps me to appreciate Tolkien's creation, and your additions, so much. After all, the differences between Anglicans (especially High Ones,) and Catholics stem more from Royal and Papal disagreements rather than doctrine or belief. We share a common heritage. Perhaps something of this idea (Common heritage but differences in later practice, )is/could be worked into the traditions and practice of Aragorn's Kin - especially of his newly discovered ones! *Possible sound of baby Nuzgul being let loose and posted sneakily to Larner*! I certainly enjoyed seeing the sameness/differences between Gondor, Harad the Elves etc. People having the chance to value each other and recognise how much we share in common - even if we have different names for it. Gosh - where did all that come from? and before breakfast too! As Pippin would say 'Good Heavens! At Breakfast?'
Author's reply
Yes, there are many similarities between our traditions, and more similarities, I suspect, than differences. The problem is we as flawed mortals keep putting too much emphasis on the differences, particularly on those that allow us to judge one another's faiths. As a result we tend to become exclusive of one another, which drives folk who ought to be standing side by side apart instead. The foreign voice is one he's lost track of while the Ring was doing its thing, and he's very wise to listen to it--I so agree. And learning to accept that he's not the omniscient one here, and that being allowed to live on for a time to seeing others on the way to their various resolutions is actually PART of his reward and his further preparation for what is to come is not easy for Frodo. As for the small nuzgul you pushed this way, I suspect it's larger brother will either swallow it up or at least take it under its wing; there is still the motherly one who peeks through bedroom doors that is insisting on being fed next. Am not certain whether or not I'll see her through or look at the small fluffy bunny that hopped in yesterday. So far on it all I see is fluff, and am not certain what I'll do with her, either. (I think it's a her--sometimes it's hard to tell!)
Radbooks · 18 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
The start of a new story! This looks like an interesting beginning - poor Frodo. I love the burnt offering - living sacrifices comment that Gandalf is thinking.
Author's reply
This is a quote from the Psalms with a slight translation to fit it into Middle Earth; and is part of the Eucharistic traditions of the liturgical churches, of course. Understanding being a burnt offering is fairly easy--you are presented, your life is offered, and off you go for your reward over there. As a living sacrifice you find your reward is in great part here, but interspersed with all the problems that you offer of yourself to solve. Nowhere as easily defined, and not as easily accepted by many. But, I think, the Creator prefers the living sacrifices, as we have more chance of touching more lives positively along the way.
lotrgirl1415 · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
wonderful update love! *hugs4frodo* *tear* love the story! --Katie
Author's reply
Recovery will take time, I fear. Glad you are enjoying it so far, Katie. Thanks for the feedback.
French Pony · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
Oh, there's more! I completely missed the "In Progress" part last time. Frodo's thoughts about Sam's heroism are interesting. It's an interpretation of LOTR that I've seen before, that Sam is the real hero of the book, and mostly I think it has some valid points. But it's kind of sad to see Frodo thinking it. I also like his observation that his lost finger was tainted and that he's glad to see it go.
Author's reply
I do mean this to be a look at the beginnings of Frodo's realization that we are meant to be living sacrifices in the eyes of God, so it will go on a bit. Many feel Sam is the real hero; although in reality all three were necessary to the destruction of the Ring--Frodo, Sam, and Gollum. They are all intertwined here. Sam feels Frodo is the hero, while Frodo thinks Sam is the hero, and all would have been lost had Gollum not taken the Ring at the last. None is THE hero--we are all part of what is meant to be a cooperative effort. And glad that my idea of Frodo's thought on his finger's loss meets with your approval. Hope the story continues to keep you engaged as it progresses.
lindahoyland · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
Poor Frodo,being paraded must be the very last thing he wants and being dressed by someone else is not pleasant unless you have been brought up to it. I love the way you explore Frodo's mixed feelings.I would also love to read your account of how Aragorn felt when he and Sam were brought from the fire. You are very good at psychology!I know in Jungian terms a ring symbolises the Ego,so to destroy it for Frodo is also to destroy part of himself.. IT can indeed be a curse if you are the type of person who analyses everything.
Author's reply
I did write Aragorn's take on the recalling of Frodo and Sam in The Ties of Family, when Aragorn comes to the Bridge to accompany the Hobbits to the conference at Imladris. Maybe I'll work it into this story, too--but maybe I won't--haven't gone that far as yet. Tolkien tended to rush the recoveries quite a bit, I always thought. Frodo's awake, and already he's being rushed off to a feast? Necessary for the morale of the troops and the feelings of propriety for those who were offering themselves to give Frodo and Sam time to get them to the Fire; but for Frodo, just awakened and probably still confused, this must have felt like too much to handle! And then dressed by someone else and in such a guise---- The comment on Jung is quite interesting. I've not read deeply into his philosophy, but agree that Frodo indeed did lose part of himself along with the Ring. The Ring had known seventeen and a half years to weave itself into his mind and awareness, and now that part of him has truly been cleansed away by fire. Now to allow the joy to return to fill the empty places in his being hollowed out by the Ring's actions and its loss.... And self-analysis can be self-destructive if we let it go too far.
jodancingtree · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
This is wonderful, Larner, wise and deep. And I love the insight that Sam would accept everything with simple gratitude. jo
Author's reply
I think that Sam is now as Frodo was when he awoke in Rivendell, but that after the five months since that last awakening the Ring has done all within its power to turn Frodo's own gifts of analysis, responsibility, and humility against him, seeking to twist them into destructive forces instead of gifts intended to aid him to live to be the best individual he could be. And Frodo envies Sam his ability to just accept and tries to emulate it. Thanks so much for the feedback. I loved Following the Brown Wizard, you know. I read it before I reviewed often, but it was one of the stories that encouraged me to write. Thank you for the inspiration your works have given to me.
daw the minstrel · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 2: 2: Honored
It seems to me that in some ways Frodo still hasn't learned what it means to be a "hero," namely that what we think of when we hear that word is almost never real. How many of our heroes are just ordinarly people who dogged it out and would have given away if someone else hadn't propped them up? I think that's what most heroes are. Poor Frodo. He's really surrendered pretty much everything.
Author's reply
Yes, he's surrendered so much, including (although it will be some time before he realizes this) his sense of perspective. I love the insight shown in "One Step More: the Heroism of Frodo Baggins" and as a special ed teacher understand exactly what the lady who wrote it says of how the true heroes are those who keep going, those who are true examples of "Bronwe athan Harthad"--endurance beyond hope. I've known many such in my life, and most never thought of themselves as being the least heroic. Thanks so much for the feedback, Daw.
Bodkin · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
He thought he was dead! And now has to deal with not being. But at least he has Gandalf there to offer him what help he can.
Author's reply
Yes, I suspect the first moment of waking must have been one of utter shock as he realized he was alive. And he has several to aid him, if he'll open to healing. Thanks for the feedback, Bodkin.
Ami · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
Stunning beginning. This is so very spiritual and symbolic, very much in tune with Frodo's quest and his redemption as well. I can't wait to read more.
Author's reply
Accepting he is alive and has spiritual healing to face as well as physical is the first step. And that spiritual redemption is in large part quite practical is also going to be a bit of a shock, I suspect.
harrowcat · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
I am not sure whether it is harder to live up to the expectations of other people or your own of yourself. I do know that the guilt that comes with letting yourself down can be nigh on impossible to forgive, as we see so well told through your words. Oh and the last bit - straight out of the Psalms! One of my favourites too. I am happy with the thought that Frodo survived because the Creator prefers a living sacrifice to a burnt offering and that Gollum made his own choice fore-shadowed but not forced by Frodo's words to him but that Frodo continues to be a living sacrifice is not a comfortable thought. But it is so true in our lives too. And I believe the two are connected - the guilt we carry makes any suffering we must bear so much worse. I am not sure if the above is making any sense, even to me but thank you for making me think Larner.
Author's reply
We were apparently brought up so similarly in our theological outlooks, Harrowcat. (See--there is a LOT of similarity between Anglican and RC upbringings!) Yes, to be a living sacrifice is sometimes the more difficult role to play, I think, because we have to live not only with the expectations of others and those we have for ourselves, which are indeed worse for those of us who tend to be introspective. And certainly I borrowed from the Eucharistic tradition and the psalms here, much as Tolkien himself did in his thinking. Frodo needs to accept responsibility for himself alone, and to allow others to do what they must as well. He has a good deal of healing of his thought processes to go through in order to be ready for what is to come, which is why, I suspect, Eru sent him the aid he needed to be rescued, giving him time for this before he came through the Gates. Thanks so much for appreciating the thought behind what I write.
Inkling · 17 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
Iluvatar does not rejoice in burnt offerings, but in living sacrifices. A great line and a promising beginning, Larner! Though I was shocked--shocked, I say, at the length! ;) It will be interesting to see your take on this part of the story...
Author's reply
I do occasionally write quite short chapters, don't I? As a Christian from the liturgical traditions, this quote from the Bible is part of the way we were raised and certainly how Tolkien would have been trained from childhood to think of our Christian duty as well. And I suspect it was part of why he decided to allow Frodo and Sam to be rescued by Gandalf and the Eagles. But it's not always an easy way to live, accepting that God wishes us to live as examples to others and to know healing and correction to our egocentric thinking before we go on. Thanks for the encouragement at the beginning.
Ellie · 16 October 2005 · Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
Interesting. I'm looking forward to more. The thought at the end was quite powerful indeed.
Author's reply
The thought at the ending is simply a slight translation from the Psalms, and an important part of the philosophy of most Christian churches. It would certainly have been as much part of the religious upbringing for Tolkien as a Roman Catholic as it has been for me as High Church Anglican; and was, I think, part of the reason he elected to see Frodo and Sam rescued from the ruin of Orodruin, that Frodo might have the chance to come to terms with his role in the eyes of the Creator instead of bearing unnecessary guilt and unreasonable standards for himself and carrying on the conceit he must remain the one sacrifice forever. I hope I don't let this story wander too far from the point, however. Am a ways ahead and find it wants to go its own way a bit. Thanks for the review.