Bodkin
· 14 October 2005
· Chapter 4: Flotsam and Jetsam
Good for Airin. And Denny. Nothing like a bit of quiet rebellion. Rilion was brave to let them into the house to take some possessions for Seredrith, baby Robin and big Robin. Right, but brave nonetheless, because he could get into terrible trouble for it. I hope that Aragorn gets this sorted out pretty quickly!
I love it that Robin took the horse - in the long run, those kinds of thing are much more important than clothes. Poor lad.
Author's reply
Yes, Rilion was brave. I don't know if Elessar would have reversed a charge brought against him, since technically he was in violation of his duty whether right or wrong, but even so it might not have come to the King's ears until after Rilion had suffered the penalty, whether flogging or something else. He was quite brave, indeed.
Poor Robin, indeed. The way the story is set up it would be very easy to turn it towards darkness, if I were feeling destructive, but I simply cannot do that to characters I've grown to like. Probably makes me predictable as all get-out. I hate being predictable. Such is life.
Beruthiel
· 13 October 2005
· Chapter 4: Flotsam and Jetsam
So Seledrith and Robin get kicked out of their home with nothing? Kinda harsh. Hopefully Aragorn or Pippin will be able to do something about that.
This is much more angsty than I was expecting. Bliss! I love angst. More please (pretty pretty please).
Author's reply
Well, we aim to please.
Could write longer chapters, but it would be less angsty that way, with so many angsty bits all clumped together. Much angstier spread out. Longer story, too. At present I know what is going to happen, but not how many chapters it'll take. Goodness.
Larner
· 13 October 2005
· Chapter 4: Flotsam and Jetsam
I bless Rilion for his ability to bend the rules for the sake of humanity, and hope the King Elessar will show the courage to do the same. And glad Robin carried out the horse, and Denny the kettle.
Author's reply
Yes, poor Rilion, who must have been quaking in his boots at the possibility of discovery... he'd already heard the sergeant threatened with a flogging. He must be wishing he never got out of bed that morning.
Dreamflower
· 13 October 2005
· Chapter 99999: Author's Note
Just thought I would comment on your idea of using history as a precedent for the strict interpretation of the law, and of its penalties. It's one used often by writers, and is a perfectly legitimate way to fill in gaps left unanswered by canon. I've seen it used to remarkable effect in a number of stories, including yours.
It's quite true that the death penalty was usually passed summarily, and carried out the same way, and often for crimes that we nowadays would consider misdemeanors. Another penalty, and a more common one, was servitude, and a criminal might find himself and possibly his family losing their status as freemen. Somewhat later on, in the colonial age, transport and hard labor were more often used. Among early Saxon societies, there was an elaborate system of fines, which would be paid off in coin or in a term of servitude--that's what I'm basing my ideas of justice in Rohan on.
My own take on Gondor and Arnor though is slightly different: Aragorn was a Dunadan, heir of lost Numenor. It was a more advanced society than that of Middle-earth--we know, for example, that the medicine of Gondor remained far in advance of that practiced elsewhere, due to its Numenorean roots. He was heir to that tradition, which I think would have been more enlightened than
that of lesser civilizations around him. I think that would have changed if the King had *not* returned--Denethor clearly was well along the road to becoming a despot, if not a tyrant, and tyrannies are *anything but* enlightened.
Anyhoo, this really is just me blathering on, because I'm finding your story fascinating, and I like to blather on about hobbits, and Middle-earth in general.
Author's reply
O I am being persnickety indeed... someone is definitely overzealous, and the angst is heaping high. Perhaps there is an assistant steward who in the steward's absence is trying to make his mark. (The steward is a Dunedan, but I can't imagine one of them being so hasty... unless perhaps he takes the protection of the Shire *very* seriously. Hmmm. Might work.) Don't know quite yet, it's not quite working but we're in the fourth revision now so I'm sure we'll muddle through somehow. Of course, there is precedent in canon for the death penalty or I wouldn't make such liberal use of it. I did suggest that certain crimes resulted in fines or confiscation of property. Dereliction to duty, at least among guardsmen, can result in flogging.
I am (only) imagining here that a hanging offence would result in seizure of property as well... it seemed logical to me. There aren't a lot of hanging offences in my version of M-e: murder, mayhem, breaking an edict of the King (somehow I don't think Elessar issued a whole bunch of these. It's possible that there were lesser edicts, with lesser penalties attached. Haven't given it oodles of thought).
Now I know in historical England, cut-purses and pick-pockets could lose a hand (at least I think I remember that), but I also remember reading in Dickens' "Oliver Twist" that Fagin was hanged--was he a murderer or was it for something else? And I think the Dodger was hanged, too, or threatened with it. I don't remember why.
Do you think that the death penalty for Beregond's crime was a relatively recent innovation, or something that came from Numenor? (But Elessar said "of old death was the penalty", when I think more deeply on it.)
As for names... might you have a few more to spare? I am certainly appreciating all you've given me thus far, but I need, yet, to name the Steward of the northern Kingdom and Turambor's sons... And why are there so many darned guardsmen in this piece??? (And the executioner, I had to give him a name too. *sigh*. And the healer. Sheesh, how about a cast of thousands?)
Dreamflower
· 13 October 2005
· Chapter 4: Flotsam and Jetsam
Ummummumm...tsk..tsk...tsk
*Someone* is being overzealous! I cannot imagine that if Aragorn, or even Pippin, had been on the spot, they would have been turned out so. For one thing, as Denny so wisely pointed out, it wasn't practical, and for another it wasn't humane. Sounds more like the way things would have been done under Denethor, though. It takes a while for a different way of doing things to sink in.
I like your Airin--what a nice name for the lass! *grin* Wherever did you find it? LOL! She is both sympathetic and practical. Poor Rilion, apparently is just *young*.
Bodkin asked for angst, huh? Looks like you are going to dish it out in spades! Ah well, angst makes for longer stories than fluff. 8-D
Poor characters!
Author's reply
I don't think this situation would have come up in the first place if Aragorn were accessible. It seems he went fishing early this morning... He's probably somewhere along the shore, having breakfast with some half-wild mysterious stranger or other... This may be the trip where his son nearly drowns, not sure without checking the timeline.
And Pippin is sticking very close to Jack and Will at the moment, and cannot spare a thought quite yet for other consequences of this whole mess.
Airin--lovely name, one I'd never seen before, actually. She's practically Seledrith's twin, having been raised with her from early childhood. Of course she's going to know what to pack... in the least amount of time.
Poor Rilion. Guess he's got room to grow.
Lots of angst in this one. Don't know quite how practical or realistic it all is. But we do our best to figure out rationalizations, and if something can't be rationalized it gets re-written. Four revisions. And counting. Whew.
Yup, angst makes for longer stories. The happy fluffy story is about one chapter in length, by contrast.
Author Reply: Huh. Since I am now informed of some psychological syndrome or other, whereby young children raised together, even if unrelated, are unable to fall in love later in life and have romantic feelings for each other, I am re-writing a few things to reflect that Airin was adopted by Turambor's brother, and is a best-friend-as-close-as-a-sister to Seledrith.
Interesting, the things one learns along the way...
harrowcat
· 13 October 2005
· Chapter 4: Flotsam and Jetsam
I'm greedy for new tales Lindelea and prompt reviews (for what they are worth ) is all the payment I can give for the enjoyment I get from authors on this site. (Unless anyone wants a beta reader.) But now you have whetted my appetite! I want to see the other version too.
Author's reply
Well, feedback is excellent grease for the wheels, I have to admit. Sometimes I'll sign on to check my mail without any desire to write, just to read a couple of thoughtful reviews that spark my thinking and get me speculating about What if...? Amazing how that works.
Author Reply: ...as to the other version, well, we'll just have to see. Possibly part of it will be incorporated into this story, near the end.
harrowcat
· 13 October 2005
· Chapter 4: Flotsam and Jetsam
Every time I see a new chapter a little thank you goes up for Bodkin who requested this! Turned out without anything but the clothes on their backs? I should think not indeed!
Author's reply
And you may bless Bodkin for requesting "angst". There were two versions of this story, before it was written, one short and sweet, and this is the other...
And blessings to you for the quick response and encouraging feedback!
Sure glad Airin was on the spot! (And thanks again, Dreamflower, if you happen to read this, for the list of names... "Airin" is much less confusing and cumbersome than "Turambor's daughter in law")
Bodkin
· 12 October 2005
· Chapter 3: Shipwreck
Oh dear. Poor Denny - what a shattering moment. He knows enough to talk at the prisoners rather than to them, though. It must be a difficult moment to be between the Guard and the family; not knowing which way to go. I'm glad he sort of went the family route.
Pippin was impressive - you don't often get to see him pulling rank among Men, but the rank is his to pull and I'm glad the guard holding Robin recognised that.
I suppose, in reality, there was no way this could be settled without due process - but it's a good thing Seredrith has already given birth, because I don't know how her body could cope with this in pregnancy. And to be told in that impersonal way that her home and livelihood was forfeit to the crown and all her possessions to be auctioned. Including, I daresay, everything she was't actually wearing at the time. I can't see Diamond taking to that too well. (In fact, if it comes to that, I could imagine Diamond at the forefront of the bidders, with a very ferocious expression on her face, saving what she can.)
So what Jack has feared so long is unwinding - but he and Will are facing it with remarkable fortitude. I suppose, in a way, reality is less intimidating than endless nights of worrying. Those gallows must have haunted their dreams for years. Fingers crossed that their torment won't last much longer. And not because they'll be dancing at the end of a rope.
Author's reply
Poor Denny. He knew just how far he could go... but as you may already have seen in the next page, he knows how to stretch that line, too.
I too could imagine Diamond in the forefront--that was actually one of the early scenarios--but it probably won't work quite that way, the way it's written now. Still, a satisfying ending if we can just make our way to the end.
Though Jack is not a Numenorian, I'm sure he's heard about "the gift of Eru". We've been reading in history about cultures where the people didn't fear death... cultures from which Tolkien drew many of his ideas. The main reason that Numenor fell was because Men refused the gift, wasn't it? Perhaps shorter-lived men sought rather to die well, than to try to live "forever".
The chapters are breaking out shorter than I thought, partly due to time constraints. So while the angst seems to be stretching out interminably, in our time, in the story time it really is over pretty quickly.
Thanks!
harrowcat
· 11 October 2005
· Chapter 3: Shipwreck
I love reading the reviews and your responses as much as the story - well almost! Glad to see that the family has friends and relatives that don't desert them even when all seems bleak! And what a powerful hobbit threesome acting on behalf of the king. Nice to see them on some official duties and not just guard duty.
Author's reply
I love reading the reviews, too...
And the responses are interesting to write, being something of a give-and-take as a story is being thought through and edited. I really do enjoy the give-and-take. Sometimes a review will make me take a deeper look at a plot development or a character, sometimes it will alter the course of a story somewhat as I read a new insight that I didn't "see" originally. Sometimes it just confirms what is happening. In any event, oftimes reviews lead to a better story.
I like to contemplate the three remaining Travellers working together in concert in the face of a challenging situation...
Larner
· 11 October 2005
· Chapter 3: Shipwreck
Ooh, now I am angry, that there should be an auction of the premises? Am so glad Pippin spoke up for Robin. Bless the Thain!
As for being glad I respond, you know how much I appreciate responses to my own, and yours, being so well informed, mean a great deal to me, as you know.
Now, Elessar, you'd best do right by these or I'll smuck you up alongside the head!
Author's reply
The auction of the premises was something that just sort of inserted itself as the logical thing to do, without really being thought out. But it still seems like a logical thing to do, if the owner has been hauled off to be hanged, and his son with him.
In our family history, when my great-grandfather died, my great-grandmother and her three daughters were turned off their property with just what they could carry. Sad, isn't it, what history tells us?
Whoa, if I didn't have such confidence in Elessar I'd have to alert his elite bodyguard...
Dreamflower
· 11 October 2005
· Chapter 3: Shipwreck
Oh yes! I do like seeing Sir Peregrin, Captain of the Citadel and Thain of the Shire assert his authority over these big Men.
I do feel sorry for the family; really, I do! So why am I grinning?
'Cause I love your evil cliffies, and I *know* you're going to pull something special out of your hat.
Author's reply
Is he really Captain of the Citadel? Well, in hobbits' eyes, maybe. But then I hear/see the proprietor of the Green Dragon shrug and say, "Sit-a-dell? Is that the new inn, down Waymoot-way?"
Poor family. But they're banding together. (Could have been so much worse. If Turambor weren't salt of the earth he might have cast out Robin for his association with criminals... but he's a good man. And he certainly won't turn his back on his daughter and grandson for having the misfortune to be married to/descended from a law-breaker, even though there's precedent in fiction for such a thing to take place. I'm afraid Seledrith has lost her wits, just a little... but it's a plot point and so I'll end here.)
Thanks for the vote of confidence! (Lots of potential for cliffies in this one, I fear. Such is life.)
harrowcat
· 11 October 2005
· Chapter 2: Rude Awakening
This just gets better. The bottom has just dropped out of their world and each is reacting to protect the others - very nicely done!
Dreamflower
· 10 October 2005
· Chapter 99999: Author's Note
I think each of us makes her/his own interpretation of the edict. Personally, I simply think that JRRT did not think through all the implications of it. Generally speaking, it would have stifled trade, and as has been pointed out, often caused more problems than it solved.
However, it's canon, and those of us who respect canon, have to find our own ways through the mine-field along with a number of other quirky things--such as six or seven meals a day, the need for seven witnesses and red ink for legal documents, the fact that neither Sam nor Fatty Bolger had ever been in Buckland before the Conspiracy, the distance between the Shire and Bree, or Buckland, Tookland and Hobbiton, the age gap between Frodo and his cousins, Sam inexplicably forgetting Frodo's anniversary illnesses, and any number of other inconveniences. People do sometimes ignore these roadblocks, but it is often to the detriment of the story, and will automatically render it AU.
My own take on the edict is that yes, Elessar binds himself to it, but I allow him to have given *the hobbits* some leeway--by the agreement of the three most eminent people of the Shire, the Thain, Master and Mayor, exceptions can be made. Having looked at what it says in the Tale of Years, there are no specifics on the edict other than just the general ban. So I feel we are able to make up our own minds about the apecifics and the penalties. I have seen some, where the Thain may give permission, or where the edict may be lifted for some reason or other. Nothing in canon says this cannot have happened. I have not addressed what the punishment would be. I am not so certain that I would go with the death penalty myself. It would give me too many problems. (I don't mean ethically, I mean plot-wise.)
You have chosen to give a very strict penalty, and have given yourself a real challenge to overcome. It is a tribute to your own ingenuity that you have been able to work all these challenges out. In "All that Glisters" and in "As Falls the Gentle Rain", you have addressed the legal problems brilliantly, and I have every confidence that you will do so again in this story.
Author's reply
I think you're right about that. Sometimes I write stories without thinking through all the implications... not so often as I used to.
Justice could be pretty harsh in olden times. The dc and I were just discussing the other day that the lenient rulers seemed to be the ones who were most easily deposed... Don't know if that's a rule of thumb, but we keep coming up against it in history. A "good" king, loved by the people, ends up getting replaced where a ruthless ruler seems to go on and on like the Energizer bunny (unless he was crazy, in which case he might be murdered or suffer a mysterious death).
I can see Elessar as strict but fair. Certainly the penalties are severe, but they fit the sociology of the time back when "punishment" was the name of the game rather than "rehabilitation". As a matter of fact, the justice I've thought out for the Shire is rehabilitative in nature, and only those who are thought of as incorrigible are cast out, when it appears that they cannot be rehabilitated or their actions/attitude comprise a threat to other hobbits.
Thank you for the vote of confidence! I certainly hope I can make it through the legal quagmire in this story and safely to the other side...
Bodkin
· 10 October 2005
· Chapter 2: Rude Awakening
Poor Seledrith. This must be the most appalling shock for her - her sweet kind husband so close to the end of a rope. And Pippin is distressingly serious here. I'm betting Diamond wishes she'd never opened her mouth at the moment.
And I am crossing fingers and toes that Aragorn behaves with his legendary wisdom and remembers that Jack saved Pippin and Sam's sons - when he didn't have to - and that he behaved with courage and fortitude in the Shire when he didn't have to, as well.
Save that conjuror! Over the years he has often proved his worth to the hobbits of the Shire. I only hope it's enough.
Author's reply
You're right. This is a terribly appalling shock for Seledrith, and I fear as a result she's not acting very reasonable at the moment (working in a future chapter right now)
As for Diamond, and Pippin... well, don't let me get started.
Lucky for Jack and Will (and probably Rob) that Aragorn is Aragorn and not, say, Denethor (Steward of Gondor, not Denny).
Author Reply: And let's just say that Pippin has good reason to be serious. Whew.
Larner
· 10 October 2005
· Chapter 2: Rude Awakening
As the King is here in the north now, and as Pippin is also here, and considering the judgment given to Beregond, I suspect Jack has little to fear. Of course, he probably doesn't know the judgment given to Beregond.
I pity the wife, and all of them for their fear, which I suspect, knowing our Lord Elessar, is unnecessary.
Author's reply
The story would certainly end quickly and rather boringly if Jack, Will and Rob thought there was little to fear.
The King has issued an edict--I wonder how much latitude he gives himself? He didn't enter the Shire himself, the year he came to meet his friends at the Bridge. I think JRRT made a point of that, but don't remember now where I read it.
By rights Jack and Will could be taken directly to the gallows (do not pass "Go"). But with the King in town, and Pippin involved, I don't think that such a predictable thing will happen.
Whew. We're already in the fourth revision, and counting. It's not even predictable to the author and editor!
Bodkin
· 10 October 2005
· Chapter 99999: Author's Note
Men are not to enter the Shire
It's too absolute a rule, isn't it? And there are too many perfectly justifiable reasons that you can think of when the rule would be more of a hindrance than a help.
And then you think - it's apartheid. Imposed for the best of reasons, but still apartheid. He is removing the choice from the people who live in the Shire.
And you're right - there's the road. Surely it can't have been used only by dwarves and elves - it would have fallen into disrepair and the trade of those who depended on the travellers would have collapsed.
Surely a system of visas of something would have worked better. Permission from Rangers supervised by the Borderers.
One of those things that sounds a good idea. Like Elwing in her White Tower. Until you really begin to think about the ripples in the pond.
(I love your note sections. So informative.)
Author's reply
Thanks for the feedback. Makes me wonder... JRRT was born in Africa, wasn't he? Or am I mixing him up with another author?
I have heard the Edict compared to Apartheid before. I wonder what JRRT thought of Apartheid, or if he saw any kind of analogous relationship between the edict and the situation in South Africa.
I wonder if JRRT thought it through--did the Edict lead to the decline of ths Shire? Or was the Edict lifted at a later time, which mention didn't make it into the Tale of Years?
What about the Road? One author I know wrote it as a sort of "easement" where Men could travel through the Shire on the Road but couldn't stray from the path, so to speak. I suppose that would mean they'd have access to inns along the way, for to travel all the way across the Shire would take more than a day...
But I have gone for a strict interpretation here, where Men must stop at the borders.
Pippin, while seeing the good in the Edict (I remember in "Rope" and again in "Merlin" he is meticulous in the enforcement, considering the King's request to allow Men at specific times for specific events and no more than that) might wish to stretch the rules somewhat, as was done for Bergil. Or perhaps he's concerned about the impact on the businesses along the Road. It has been nearly 20 years since the Edict was proclaimed...
...but how much Manly traffic was there in earlier times? What business would Men have had at the Grey Havens, I wonder, especially after the North-kingdom fell? Seems to me that Men of the North were either fugitives or gathered in small enclaves against the surrounding darkness. (Bree, the villages of the Dunedain, Dale, to name a few)
...just a few thorny issues that have raised themselves up as I was thinking this story through.
So does stretching the rules begin the eventual failure of the Shire? Or was it the isolation that doomed the Shire-folk to diminishing and furtiveness?
I would so *love* to see the Professor's take on this.
Bodkin
· 6 October 2005
· Chapter 1: A Knock at the Door
What a lovely start. And there's Seledrith pondering on the attractions of Gwillam - reserved and gentle, not a hero, self-effacing - and I'm thinking if she only knew he has spent all his adult life so far in fear of being hanged and dare not shove his nose above the parapet. And yet - and yet he is still a kind-hearted loving gentle person. Not bitter or defensive or resentful at the situation Jack put him in when he was scarcely more than a child.
It must be hard for Jack to have to hide, too. His history with hobbits dates back so far - and was so positive, on the whole. I'm not sure that Aragorn's edict was entirely sensible. It has its points but smacks a little of an apartheid established for the best possible motives, but actually creating a division between two of the free peoples - and enhancing the hobbits' xenophobia, whilst encouraging men to look on them as mythical creatures.
I'm longing to know what happens next.
harrowcat
· 5 October 2005
· Chapter 1: A Knock at the Door
I, too, went back to re-read All that glisters. Short version or long invloved plot this promises to be just as good.
Author's reply
Great! Hope it lives up to its promise.
(wrestling plot to the ground; let's see who wins...)
Anso the Hobbit
· 5 October 2005
· Chapter 1: A Knock at the Door
Oh, lovely. I am very excited to see how this unfolds. :D More soon please!
Author's reply
More on the morrow, I hope. And your request exists in summary; now all it needs is the writing.
Elentariel
· 4 October 2005
· Chapter 1: A Knock at the Door
Sounds great, please update soon
Author's reply
Will do my best!
Larner
· 4 October 2005
· Chapter 1: A Knock at the Door
Alas--terror, I suspect, unnecessary. I hope Pippin gets it all sorted out appropriately before Aragorn.
Author's reply
I certainly hope *somebody* gets it all sorted out. It's in its third revision (can you believe it?) and important things keep changing.
Larner
· 4 October 2005
· Chapter 0: Prologue
Aha--It appears Jack is indeed going to receive his just desserts, and hope they are sweet ones!
Author's reply
As they ought to be... eventually.
Dreamflower
· 4 October 2005
· Chapter 1: A Knock at the Door
Oh dear! All this time, poor Jack, living in fear of the hobbits because of his actions, and yet if truth be known, he's a hero among them. I am sure there will be a legal tangle, but after the coup you pulled off in "As the Gentle Rain", I am quite sure that Elessar will find the right solution here. (Just as Beregond and Bergil how clever the King is with loopholes.) But it looks like there will be lots of angst along the way.
Author's reply
An incredible legal tangle. Elessar ought to be carefuller about his edicts, I think, especially when they deal with hobbits, who after you've known them some centuries can still surprise you, as I'm sure Gandalf told him.
FantasyFan
· 4 October 2005
· Chapter 1: A Knock at the Door
I had to go back and read the epilogue to Glisters to properly get into the headspace for this story, and I got involved reading whole chapters, and then some of the original reviews. What a body of work you have gifted us with!
I wonder how long this is going to be? Obviously Diamond has told the secret, thinking Pippin will want to give his thanks in person - it really should take only a couple of chapters to describe the confrontation that's about to happen. But remembering the devious way you have with plot, anything could happen afterwards, and we might end up with another 70 chapter epic! Did you ever make plans for Jack and Will and Robin, past this point (we've already seen them turn up at Bilbo's)?
Reading the original story, I was again moved by how heartbroken Pippin was about his actions, and how he blamed himself for his malice and ill intent, I wonder exactly what he will have to say to Jack. Many things have happened since then, and Pippin has continued to grow and mature, but this (as well as the parallel 'kidnapping' in Runaway) were certainly key events in that early coming to terms with his own limitations.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Author's reply
Thank you for the vote of confidence!
At the moment the first draft looks more like a five-to-ten chapter work, but it's been revised twice already and who knows what is about to happen? It started out in three chapters, after all, and keeps growing like a mushroom.
There is one more (unpublished) "Jack" story, another meeting with Pippin when Pippin is a little older. It is still pretty nebulous, but it's possible that Jack gets to meet Frodo again as well, after Bilbo has left the Shire. Hope so, anyhow, if I can get it worked out.
Pippin's speech before the King in defence of Jack hinges on the exact points you mentioned. But that is nearly giving away plot points, and the plot points are still under construction, so I had better quit whilst I'm ahead.
Thanks again.
Bodkin
· 4 October 2005
· Chapter 0: Prologue
This is a very tantalising beginning. I do love Denny - he is one of my favourites and I am so pleased he survived the wounding in All that Glisters. And seeing this through his eyes is fascinating. What a turn round - from an exciting hobbit arrival and feast - and being dragged off to sit with his friends - to such a worrying situation.
And Jack must be scared to death. Not just for himself, but for his boys, too. They're not children now, whatever they were x years ago when they all last met.
Denny is about to become a daddy, too! Lovely.
Thank you so much for writing this. I'm thrilled to bits!
Author's reply
Replied to this but SoA ate it and now am out of time... but will get back to answer, I hope.