Moving Apart by Marnie
Mandos · 2 November 2023 · Chapter 1
This is the first fic that opened my mind to internal Sindarin politics, and I am very thankful for that. Especially since the events of the Silmarillion and later ages are always interpreted through Noldorin lens.
Scarlet · 28 May 2013 · Chapter 1
It's been years since this was posted and reviewed, but I just found it, so hope you'll see this. This is an excellent story. It puts a magnifying glass onto the conflicts, as they might have been, between the various clans of the Elves, elaborating the too few sentences of Tolkien. You managed to show the events, eliciting the reader's emotions, to draw a clear picture of how the remnants of Doriath carried the trauma with them. I believe this story will stay with me for a while. Thank you.
Author's reply
Thank you so much for the review :) Yes, I've no idea why I suddenly decided to find the racial politics of the first and second age elves fascinating, but I guess there's no real choosing where the muse will strike. I'm glad it worked for you. Thank you :)
L*M · 9 February 2005 · Chapter 1
Excellent story, Marnie. I had never considered Sindarin politics after the First Age, and never considered Avari politics, period. So "Moving Apart" was very interesting to me. It gave me a whole new perspective on Second Age history. As logical as it is, it had never occured to me that the Kinslayers would still be poisining Elven relations long after they were dead. Though I can see some of Oropher's points, I mostly took Celeborn's side. And the nerve of Oropher, accusing Celeborn of plotting to take over Lorien! Does Oropher say very stupid things when he gets angry, or is he just paranoid? Because Oropher does strike me as paranoid, and not just in that instance. I'm no fan of Galadriel, but I think Oropher's too hard on her. And--now we're back to Elven politics again--I read the other reviews and your replies. I imagine the Blessed Land as a very peaceful place; I never thought the Elves would depart Middle-earth to live in a place full of political divisions, squabbles, and people who don't get along. It makes me wonder what your characters, transplanted to Aman, would do if the Feanorians were rehoused. I often fantasize that they are--at least some of them, like Amrod, Amras, Caranthir and maybe Maedhros. Poor Nerdanel deserves it. Again, it was an excellent story, very enjoyable and interesting in a broadening-of-the-horizons type of way.
Author's reply
Thanks for the review L*M :) Yes, the Second Age is a curiously underexplored bit of Arda history, isn't it? Combine that with three rather obscure characters and I don't know how I thought anyone would be interested. But I do like to concentrate on the obscure ;) I think Oropher is a bit like Thingol, who has a tendancy to say hurtful things when he's angry whether or not he really believes it. And while he might - in cooler situations - agree that Celeborn wouldn't try to take over Lorien, Celeborn himself has to agree that some of the other people he's brought with him might have a go. On the other hand I do agree that he's too harsh with Galadriel, poor girl! As for the Blessed Land - well, it seemed unreasonable to me to put all those normally quarrelsome elves, with their passionate characters and their long grievances *anywhere* without some tension between them. I just see Aman as a place where it will be easier to work those differences out than in Middle-earth. I could see the three Feanorians you mention being rehoused, and I think it would be tricky for everyone. You'd have to hope that they'd all matured enough for it to be handled with tact :) Thanks again for the review!
merimas gamgee · 5 February 2005 · Chapter 1
Lo and behold, over a week later I come up with another comment. Ah well, take 'em as they come I suppose. Not even a comment so much as a question really. While re-reading "Seeds of Old Trees" the other day, I noticed a few qualities in you portrayal of Amdir that seem to differ from how he is written in "Moving Apart". "Did you know that Oropher is among us again, and has been embroiled in a three way feud with Amdir and Thranduil for a century, over some insult which no one else can now remember." ...."and he thought of Oropher suddenly, and Beleg, of Amdir and Saeros and Eol, none of whom were known for their tact." "Amdir has many Avari in his following." Taking the cauldron, Elu ladled out a bowl of the soup for himself, stirring in extra cream, "and some ancestral bitterness remains there towards those who left them behind and long looked down on them." He snorted with amusement. "More resentment even than our own. Thus Amdir's thoughts on the Troubles represent an extreme." In these parts, and to a lesser extent during his conversation with Celeborn about the Troubles, Amdir seems a more militant figure than the moderator between Celeborn and Oropher. The comment about his tact, in particular, seems to contradict his entire character in this story, where he really displays nothing but tact. An as amusing as it is to think of the three way feud, the Amdir of this story really doesn't seem like the type. My question then is this: do these bits represent an earlier conception of Amdir's character, or is he just being unusually patient and tactful in "Moving Apart, given the family circumstances"? Either way, I'm very interested to know what kind of insult would not only turn Oropher and Thranduil against each other, but embroil Amdir as well. Maybe you could elaborate if you ever do the Celeborn-Oropher reunion? Cheers Merimas
Author's reply
I think it is a case of seeing him in different circumstances. My feeling is that he is a typical Sinda, in that he is inclined to be blunt in his speech (hence the remarks about 'the men of the Sindar are harsh' and Amdir not being known for tact). *However* he is more even tempered and tactful than Celeborn and Oropher. It's a matter of degrees. In the matter of the three way feud between Amdir, Oropher and Thranduil, I was thinking that it was a bit like the situation with Oropher and Celeborn - originally Oropher and Thranduil were arguing, with Amdir in the middle trying to calm things down; then Oropher ended up being rude to Amdir because he was siding with Thranduil, and Thranduil insulted Amdir because he was siding with Oropher, whereupon Amdir felt aggrieved and hard done by and argued with them both. Amdir's kingdom of Lorinand did contain a fair amount of Avari - which wasn't a problem in Lorinand, as that was their own land, where they felt they belonged. But those who went to Valinor (following their Eldar friends and relations) would have immediately come into contact with a Calaquendi society which thought of them as the lowest of the low. His people would therefore have a new militancy that he would have to deal with as their king. He himself is not more militant, but he is dealing with a new and less settled political situation. Did that make sense? :)
merimas gamgee · 26 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Well, having read the other reviews of this story, I found that what I was going to say has already been said by those more eloquent than I. But seeing as how I had what I was going to say pretty much planned out I'll go ahead and say it. Call it renforcement rather than outright plajurism. Firstly, I love how you finally fleshed out the Oropher/Celeborn dynamic that you'd alluded to in several of your stories. I was especially impressed at how, while keeping the conflict on a personal level, you were able to play it as a debate between more general Silvan, Sindar and Noldor stances. It gave greater resonance to what could otherwise be seen as a family squabble, even if it works on that level as well. My other favorite part of this story is Celeborn's statement about the 'scions of Doriath'(I would be interested in Oropher's reaction if Amdir ever reiterated this comment to him...)and Amdir's subsequent vision. Supurb foreshadowing! I'll add my voice to the clamour for a 'Seeds of Old Trees' tie in featuring Oropher and possibly Thranduil. But I'm not sure I'd find a full reconcilliation entirely satisfying, mostly because the sense I get from Oropher and Celeborn is that fighting is an essential componant of their relationship to each other, though obviously not on the level of the events in this story. It would seem too fairy tale to me if the magical land of Valinor simply inspired these two to get along like best friends. Though their quarrel obviously didn't go as deep as Celeborn and Celebrimbor's, those two didn't exactly kiss and make up, partly because their relationship was based mostly on mutual loathing. Along the lines of possible 'Seeds' tie-ins, I'm fairly interested in how you would portray the relationship between Thranduil and Amroth. In this story, they don't really do much except come to the defense of their fathers. I imagine that, as the only two Sindar princes of their generation, their relationship must go beyond their father's enemnity. And veering even farther off topic, I'd love to see more of Elmo, either proir to his capture or after his rebirth. He's another character that, like Oropher before this story, you allude to enough that we get some sense of his relationship to Celeborn, but nothing very concrete. Well there you go: what I loved about this story and a wishlist for more (I feel like I'm writing a Christmas list and should be asking you for a bike next). In all seriousness, I loved this story and look forward to whatever you write next. Cheers! Merimas
Author's reply
Wow! I should get more reviews from people with nothing to say, if they're like this :) Thank you! Yes, I felt it was about time, after all the dropped allusions to how Celeborn and Oropher fought like cats and dogs, but still liked each other, that I tried putting them together in a fic. I soon discovered that if you put 3 Sindar into a clearing, with their sons, you get fifteen opinions and an almighty row :) The 'scions of Doriath' line was a nod to my personal belief that - had Celeborn not fallen in love with a Noldo - he too would probably have been as wary of them as Oropher and Thingol himself was. But you can see why he's not famous for his ability to foresee the future ;) It would seem too fairy tale to me if the magical land of Valinor simply inspired these two to get along like best friends. I suspect it would be the kind of best-friendship that involved lots of war-stories, hunting trips, and the occasional punch-up which they would have to conceal from their longsuffering wives. As far as Thranduil and Amroth go, I don't know. Legolas speaks of Amroth as though he was a figure in distant legend, which would indicate that Thranduil hasn't been reminiscing about good old times with him. On the other hand, Legolas speaks of Thranduil as 'my elven-King', so perhaps terminal reticence is standard among elves. I'll think about it. Hm... how about a fluffy little tale of these three in their childhood being looked after by Elmo? Except that I can't do fluff... Many thanks for a splendid review, and I'll think about the wish list :) Marnie :-)
Bodkin · 18 January 2005 · Chapter 1
'Maybe I'll have to write a 'Seeds' tie-in where Celeborn and Oropher finally settle their differences.' Yes!!!!!! Excellent plan!!!!! Where they are several thousand years older and a bit better able to see each other's point - and know how their choices turned out. And maybe, just maybe, where Oropher concedes that Galadriel might just possibly not be quite as bad as he thought!! (I was going to put that she might be human - then put elvish - but neither sounded right.)
Elena Tiriel · 17 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Ah, Marnie, this was just agonizing to read! And after the despair of seeing the two kinsmen, who have so much in common, irrevocably break from each other, the last vision of Amdir's was horrifying. It's left me a bit breathless... Well done! - Barbara
Author's reply
Thanks, Barbara! I hope it was agonizing in a good way :) Yes, as someone pointed out to me recently; the Lindar do have a tendancy to split apart into different factions. Maybe I'll have to write a 'Seeds' tie-in where Celeborn and Oropher finally settle their differences. Anyway, thanks again!
Aislynn Crowdaughter · 16 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Hi, Marnie! WOW. I'm stunned! This is giving so much depth to the parting between Oropher and the Lorinand people, and it gives back a lot of sense to Orophers decision. It is thrilling to see how the anger, the grudge, the unforgivable words, the discord is slowly creeping out of the egg, and all the more eerily convincing because it is told out of Amdirs view as one who stand between the two arguments. And it is great to see how both Oropher and Celeborn both rethink their own arguments and give due to the acusations of the others -- *after it is too late to reconcile and not lose face! Also I love the way Nimrodels view is woven into this, the way you take care of the Amroth problem (who's my daddy? aka Amdir versus Celeborn). Also it is breathtaking to see Celeborn (betlatedtly) admit that there is some point to Orophers argument of mistrusting the Noldor. I love the way Amdir and Celeborn think of those Gholodrim who are unable or unwilling to learn - walking around Lorinand already contemplating to change it into a second Eregion. And then the end. The vision Amdir has of Orophers fate as well as his own. Grueling! Sadly, in retroperspective, we know of course that Oropher will be proven wrong, that e will meet the fate of Denethor, and that Thranduil will learn the hard way to arm the remaining third of Greenwoods warriors with longbows instead of slings and to follow the example of Menegroth and go underground to have a stronghold that is better defendable. It is sad to know that Oropher will lose two thirds of his warriors, and himself, and Amdir half of *his*, and his own life, precisely *because* they are not as well armed as the Noldor *and* becuse both kings and their people are not willing to bow to Gil-Galad. And the Noldor later had only scorn for them! Great piece that gives much depth to these few sentences Tolkien wrote that you quote at the start. WOW, again!!! I love it! Please, please write more of Celeborn and the Sindar/ Silvain view of history, it is musch needed to have more stories about them! Aislynn
Author's reply
Thanks for a brilliant review, Aislynn! I'm delighted that you think this makes sense of Oropher's behaviour (and Celeborn's too, for that matter). *I* think that he had perfectly good reasons for what he did. Whether they were right or not, I don't know, though I think it's notable that his kingdom is the only one to survive long past the Third Age 'untroubled'. He may have felt that that was a result of his policies. Yes, it's a shame that Oropher and Celeborn can only seem to agree with each other when they're apart. My feeling is that they both respect each other a lot, but just rub each other up the wrong way when they're together. It's funny, I know it's only my invention - that Amdir fostered Celeborn's son, and therefore Amroth was technically Amdir's son too - but it does seem to fit into the canon marvellously, given that long period when Celeborn was in Eregion and Amroth was with Amdir. I wish I could claim it was true! But I feel quite justified in making the suggestion ;) Thranduil is clearly less of a hardliner in his policies than Oropher - I think he's probably more practical and less romantic than his father. It is sad to think of Oropher and Amdir dying at the Last Alliance, and sadder still, to my mind, that Gil-galad gets enduring fame and a song about how valiant and fair he was, whereas they get only footnotes in a book that only geeks like me read. How fair is that? Another example of Noldor propaganda! ;) Thanks ever so much! It always makes me completely over the moon to get a 'Wow'! And two? That's fabulous :)
adn_heming · 16 January 2005 · Chapter 1
*squeals* Marnie, Marnie, you have given the Oropher fangirl in me much cause for rejoicing! I know he's not your favourite elf ;)---more power to you for giving him a fair hearing in his disagreements with Celeborn. Your portrait of him is *beautiful* and feels utterly real: his utter scorn for the Noldor, his pride in his culture, his grief at its decimination in the Noldor's hands, his love and respect for their Silvan kin. May I quote: "But we cannot all be so oblivious, and I will not have my folk learn to think of themselves as savages, as servants born." Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU. This needed to be said. I think this motive is the driving force behind Oropher, what defines him. More than that, it's *wrong* to construct the Silvans as as inferior, or placidly accepting of the Sindar's rule over them. And it's not just Oropher---there's great stuff from *everyone*. Amdir, Amroth, Celeborn and Amdir---but I'm particularly enjoying the dynamics between the "three scions of Doriath." I, however don't envy Amdir, not in the least. And poor Thranduil and Amroth: of course they're going to side with their Dads. I have read it over and over and over again. You have given me a whole afternoon of heaven. How tragic---that Celeborn hopes for a reconcilation between the three of them in Middle-Earth, and Oropher and Amdir end up *dying.* I could go on and on and on. Perhaps shall do in email. ;)
Author's reply
LOL! Thanks! If there was anyone I was worrying about getting this past it was you :) There was a point in the beginning, where Celeborn was speaking about the need to arm the Silvan elves, when I thought 'oh no! Celeborn's so obviously right! I'm going to come down heavily on his side and people are going to think I'm a Mirkwood-basher, when I'm not!' But thankfully, the minute I let Oropher explain his position he was so reasonable and so eloquent that I got to the stage of thinking 'hold on! Celeborn's wrong about this. Oh no! I'm going to have to come down heavily on Oropher's side, and people are not going to know what to think!' Whereupon they solved my dilemma by each conceding that the other was partially right. They just couldn't be brought to do it to each other ;) Tolkien is very clear that Oropher's reason for merging with the Silvan elves was a basic respect for their way of life, and a belief that it was the way of life natural to all elves. "Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately... They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it." So if anything he percieved the Silvan way as being superior to his own, in the sense of being more elf-like. I've made Thranduil a little less committed to that (his Sindarin-like fashion of wearing gems) because when he is in charge various pro-Sindarin changes take place, such as the delving of a fortress like Menegroth, and the fact that Legolas speaks Sindarin. But I see that as a slight relaxing of the strict rigour of the programme, not abandoning it altogether. Anyway, I'm so relieved that you liked my Oropher. It's always scary when you know you're writing someone's favourite character. I'd have hated to have got it wrong! I liked him too - I found him charismatic, persuasive and with a slightly poetic, romantic streak. Ah, those Sindar Lords! They are lovely!
Bodkin · 16 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Such difficult anthropological questions! Can you preserve a race, like a fly in amber? Should you? Is not change a part of the passage of time, even among elves? If the Silvan were desperate to remain Silvan, why did they welcome Sindar Lord? Was not that a realisation that they needed more - unity and strength to counter their foes? Is it not patronising to insist that a people should not change their ways? A lot of Oropher's anger seems bound up in the person of Galadriel. She stole their 'brother', she turned him away from the Sindar, because of her he would not take on Elu's role as the father of his people. H'mm. Very venomous towards her. I wonder why. Interesting to see racism among the elves. How much Noldor blood do you need to be condemned to an elven apartheid? More than half? 25%, like Galadriel? Any? Or are you contaminated purely by association, like Celeborn? 'Would you preserve your people unchanged, as though Greenwood were an outpost of Valinor?" He laughed, mockingly. "And you accuse me of Noldor vices!" ' Cutting, very cutting. And not untrue. Which would make the comment far more damaging. What a debate. And they all have their points. I am deeply grateful not to have been Amdir in the middle of this. Seeing both sides so frequently gets the peacemaker on the wrong side of both. Celeborn is better at seeing all round a problem - it is wise of him and Amdir to dump the problem elves - those 'tall Amanyar with their blazing eyes' - on Elrond. Poor Celeborn - he seems so poorly designed by nature to be a homeless wanderer, seeking refuge with a range of lords. Scary bit of foresight at the end - and sad. For all the sadness involving the doom of the Noldor - 'To evil end shall all things come, which they begin' - there seems to be a doom affecting the scions of Doriath, too. One by one they fall - until the only ones left standing are Celeborn and Thranduil. And Galadriel. Very powerful piece - it must have been hard to write. I had to wait until I could read it again before I could comment, and I'm sure that it will take several more readings for all the nuances to sink in.
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Bodkin! Yes - the difficulty of the questions (not to mention figuring out who thought what and why) was partly to blame for why this took so long to write. I ended up thinking that they all had a point, and they were all right, to a certain extent; but they were all wrong too. I've often wondered why the Silvan elves did welcome the Sindar *as their rulers* with (apparently) open arms. It can't have been a case of conquest - since Oropher arrived with only a handful of retainers. I can only assume that they were (mostly) accepted as kings by right. Perhaps it was their connection with Thingol, who would have been remembered as the true king of all the Lindar. Maybe it was as though their legendary king had come back just in time to save them from the new malice of Sauron - like King Arthur turning up in the time of Britain's greatest need? That would explain why - judging from Nimrodel's lack of success, the Nationalist movement doesn't seem to have been much of an issue. And why, having got rid of Amdir and Amroth, the people of Lorien should have actually requested that Celeborn and Galadriel come and rule them. Sorry - bit of a digression there while I thought out loud. I think on the whole Celeborn's position is the right one - he is 'the Wise' after all. Once you've got Noldor in your country, you can't really pretend that you haven't, and things will never go back to the way they were. So you might as well adapt and adopt anything that helps you deal with them. But I hope that Oropher's position is understandable enough to be sympathized with. He's a bit of a romantic. Thranduil is a bit more practical, I think. And yes, poor old Amdir. He did well, I think; the best that could have been hoped for,anyway ;) Glad you enjoyed it! Many thanks for a fabulous review!
purrlin · 16 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Ah! The Valar work in mysterious ways! Congratulations! This is one of the best political debates I've ever seen. If you read each sides arguments singularly they each seem persuasive and totally acceptable. I love that you have been able to have the debate without actually taking sides yourself. I love this time period! Great souls in impossible situations and you show them all so realistically. So if Oropher hadn't moved North then Thranduil couldn't have fought his own battles with darkness and Legolas wouldn't have been able to be were he was needed when the fellowship was formed. If Celeborn hadn't travelled to Elrond then maybe Galadriel wouldn't have followed with her daughter and the life of Elrond would have been different. If Amroth hadn't been fostered as he was then Nimrodel wouldn't have been able to affect him the way she did. If the elves hadn't split their realms then Sauron would have been able to defeat them. Maybe breaking apart is what made them able to accept that the end was in sight and that it was Man who was destined to continue the fight. Ah those Valar! sometimes, even after all the arguments, the only answer is that some things just have to happen. (It's nice to think that Thranduil and Celeborn do become closer and that perhaps Celeborn and Thranduil close out the time of elves on Middle-Earth!) Your story was bright and exciting! well done and I hope we see more, your ability to paint relationships both peaceful and painful is wonderful. Thanks you! purrlin :)
Author's reply
Many thanks for your review, Purrlin :) I thought I was mad, trying to get people to read a political debate - I wrote it mostly because it interested me. So I'm delighted to know that it interested you too. Yes, I found the arguments so persuasive that I ended up agreeing with everyone; which is a bit of a problem. I still don't know who's more right! I hadn't thought of it in terms of fate - that's very interesting! But I am amused to find that I now know why Tolkien called Legolas a 'strange' elf, and why Celeborn gave him a longbow as a gift to replace the short-bow of Mirkwood. I love it when things fit together! Yes, I'm glad that Thranduil and Celeborn make it up in the end... or perhaps they don't. After all, Celeborn only spends a short time in East Lorien before *he* moves away to Imladris. I hope there wasn't a repeat performance! Thanks again!
Bejai · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Oh, wow, Marnie. This was breathtaking. What I liked best is that all of them had valid points. This isn't a case where the reader thinks, "oh, clear character X was wrong and pigheaded," but we can see all these equally right and irreconcilable ideas. This is going to give me a good perspective when I write the Last Alliance chapter of DF in another few chapters; I'm just so grateful to see such a nuanced version of these relationships. Nothing quite like family for being able to hurt one another. They all so obviously care for one another but just can't quite get along. Oropher was appropriately stubborn and strong, but not crazy. (The only crazy elf, IMO, was Feanor.) Amdir was wonderfully reasonable, in a Sindar kind of way. And Celeborn ... well, your Celeborn is always perfect. Enjoyed too seeing the sons, and a glimpse into Amroth and Nimrodel's relationship, as well as the Celeborn/Amroth/Amdir dynamic. And the end! Ah! Break my heart, why don't you? This was such a wonderfully woven story, with so many interesting threads. I'm going to need to read it a few more times to absorb the entire picure. I don't know how it's possible, seeing as how you are one of the bright lights of the fandom, but you just keep getting better. Wow. Great story.
Author's reply
Thanks Bejai! *blush* Yes, I went into the story thinking 'well, Oropher was wrong, but he nevertheless had good reasons for what he did, so I mustn't come down too strongly on him' and the next thing I knew, he had taken the microphone and was speaking so persuasively that I was convinced that he was right, and Celeborn was just being naively idealistic because he had no other choice. Then Celeborn took the microphone, and suddenly *he* was right again... Persuasive chaps, these Sindar Lords ;) I don't think Oropher is crazy either. Doriath was gone - what did it mean to be Sindar any more? Not much. So he chose to identify himself with the Silvan people, whose cause still could be fought with some possibility of victory. And Nimrodel as a Nationalist Resistance leader becomes suddenly a bit more interesting than the wuss that she was ;) I'm glad you liked the end. Celeborn wanted me to end it with the hope that they would one day come to accept each other again - but it just didn't seem right that way. Some acknowledgement that, despite their disagreements with the Noldor, both Oropher and Amdir died fighting side by side with them needed to be made, I thought.
Dot · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Oh, Marnie. You never cease to amaze me. This was wonderful. Your obvious understanding of and passion for these characters shines through. I’ll be the first to admit that generally any political discussions hold absolutely no interest for me so I just loved the fact that I actually understood what these elves were talking about and could really see each of their viewpoints! You have a great gift for showing the weight of years behind these elves and a friendship forged in good times and which still does remain after times of test, without actually blatantly telling us. And it adds a certain poignancy to their words. I’ve always loved your Celeborn and I actually do feel quite bad for him here. I mean, apart from personally suffering from words spoken in bitterness and anger and the sacrifices he’s willing to make, I just think he’s in a really tough position. With the marriage he’s in he could never do as Oropher wants to do. I wonder if deep down he’d envy him. You write Oropher so fantastically well. He had to be every bit as charismatic and passionate as you make him but I particularly like that you give him sound and logical reasons for leaving. I kept finding myself nodding along when he spoke! The whole issue about the Silvan language is enormously important. I think I maybe relate to it, though, because I live in a country where people go to great lengths to retain our native language and preserve a cultural identity ;-) It certainly means too that Oropher gives his own realm something unique that will differentiate it from Lorien. Anyway, I wish I had time to comment in more depth but I’m afraid my bed beckons after a long day! I’m really glad I read this tonight. Oh, I forgot to say that you really made Amdir come alive for me too and I just loved the two defensive and loyal sons! This was really great. :-)
Author's reply
Thanks for a great review, Dot! Yes, I was worried that the last thing anyone would want to read was a political discussion among 3 of the most obscure elves of the books. But it interested me anyway ;) Yes, poor Celeborn - defeated, injured, browbeaten by his friends and homeless - he's not really in a good state for this discussion. But yes, in a situation where many of the survivors of Doriath blamed the Noldor for everything, his mixed marriage is a problem for him. To be fair, it's a problem for Galadriel too, and she does everything she can to fit in with his people; but on the evidence of Oropher she never quite achieves acceptance. As for Oropher, I do think his reasons are quite sound. I found that while he was speaking I was convinced that he was completely right.. but while Celeborn was speaking I was convinced that *he* was completely right! Persuasive blokes, these Sindar :) And I'm delighted that Amdir got his chance to shine. Poor bloke - he gets even less stories than Oropher does. Thanks very much again!
Luineithel · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 1
I am at a loss of words really. I cannot say much more, but thank you! Oropher has been my favourite elf for a very long time now and seeing him here so wonderfully portrayed makes me beam with happiness. He is so often written as evil or plainly mad, when really he must have been an elf of reason and passion, as otherwise no-one would have followed him; let alone let him rule an entire people, who fought and died with him in front of Mordor's Gates. The discussion was a feast of words and reasons! Really, I could not say who is right... in a way, they all might be. I love the way you stayed true to all the little details that the books give us, wonderful! The vision at the end is breath-taking. I re-read it several times, it is so very sad, very poignant. It is so terrible you do not want to read and think about this very end, while at the same time you cannot possibly manage not to do it. Perfect! Thank you some much again! :)
Author's reply
Thank *you*! Oropher is not exactly my favourite - as everyone knows, that would be Celeborn - but I feel that the bad press he comes in for is hugely unfair. I think it's symptomatic of the way the fandom tends to treat all of the Sindar/Silvan characters. People identify with the Noldor, who are after all very glamourous in a 'doomed but heroic' way, and therefore they feel that any character who openly dislikes the Noldor must be either bad or mad. It comes from not taking the Sindar seriously as a people in their own right, with their own culture and history, and their own *good* reasons for doing things. Part of what I wanted to do with this fic was to show the Sindar perspective on Middle-earth politics. To show that they had perfectly valid reasons - all of them - for acting as they did. Oropher's only real 'sin' seems to be that he didn't want to take orders from foriegners who'd previously killed his people and wiped out his civilization. I really don't see how he can be called 'irrational' because of that. Glad you liked the fic - we Sindar supporters should stand together! :)
elliska · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Wow! I love this debate. They both argued well and their motivations / feelings / experiences were expressed well. There are a few lines that I love: "Let the Doom of the Noldor fall upon the Noldor. Exactly. I definitely see this as one of Oropher's defining beliefs--the reason why he left Lindon. It forms part of my next fic as well. I don't see him as being too arrogant to live under Gil-galad's rule or so power hungry that he was seeking his own kingdom (though that may be a part of his motivation). I see him as primarily anxious to separate himself and those he loved from the Doom of the Noldor--"To evil end shall all things come, which they begin." Exactly so. That is a very powerful curse to be associated with. And Oropher saw it's power. The Silmarils were "cursed with an oath of hatred and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber." Thingol named them, against the advice of Melian, and paid a very high price for doing so. Oropher saw the power of that curse and wanted to get away from it. I love this part. A people's culture is their heart," Oropher frowned with frustration. "Their language is the very song of their soul. This Thingol knew, who chose to punish the Noldor by taking theirs away. But after language, then comes their works; their dress, their habits, the lore by which they live... It begins, perhaps, through teaching them to use Sindar weapons, and then what? They use the longbow to bring down more game; the forest suffers, the animals grow wary and scarce; we lose their trust, and we have to learn more Sindar ways to compensate. Until at last we are Silvan in name only. How can it profit my people to cut out their heart in order to save them?" Wonderful! So true! I see a lot of people laugh at Thingol's edict but as a language teacher, I know the degree to which a culture is embodied in/by their language. "Song of their soul"--that describes it perfectly. To take away a conquered people's right to use their native langauge was an ancient and very cruel way to hold power of them. Thingol's edict was very powerful and Oropher sees that. And the whole ensuing argument--preserve the Silvan's way of life vs preserving their life--was excellent. I definitely see both Oropher and Thranduil having to struggle with this. Coincidently it is also a part of the next part of my fic. And your Oropher and Celeborn covered all the bases here so well. There were many other powerful lines/arguments. Those were just my two favorites. I love your passionate Celeborn and and Oropher. Of course they (and Thranduil and Elrond) must have had this type of fire to survive all they had seen and be such good leaders for their people. I love these types of debates of conscience (sp?). Absolutely outstanding! Loved it.
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Elliska! I was afraid that no one would find 3 Sindar Lords sitting down and discussing Sindar politics interesting - so I'm delighted to be proved wrong :) Yes, I feel that Oropher had sound political reasons behind his actions. He tends to be looked down upon in fandom for being just stiff necked and prejudiced - possibly even irrational. But I don't see that. To a certain extent, in refusing to have anything to do with the Noldor, he's acting in the most cautious, most defensible way of any of them. After all, Thingol's kingdom survived all the tumult of the First Age intact, until he made the mistake of getting involved with the Noldor. I also think that it's not widely understood that Thingol's edict was a very smart move designed to allow the Sindar people to retain their self-identity. (It's probably only because English survived the Norman Conquest that in England we still have an attachment to our Anglo-Saxon roots. And of course it's why the Welsh language has such dedicated supporters. If the Welsh people lose that, how will they know that they're not us? ;) So the issue of the Silvan people losing their language in Lorien, but not losing it in Mirkwood means that Oropher's policy has made a lasting, real difference between the two realms. Of course Celeborn, as the proud possessor of a mixed marriage, doesn't have the luxury of choosing to have nothing to do with the Noldor. He has the more difficult task of trying to get the two races to work together without either oppressing the other. I suspect he envys Oropher the ability to walk away from it sometimes! What's your fic called? I must go and read it :) Thanks again!
Ms. Whatsit · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Oh, wow, what a wonderful fic. I'm so glad someone decided to write about Oropher and Amdir--intriguing characters, really, particularly Oropher. Considering his history he must have been charismatic, passionate, kind of irrational, and horribly stubborn. I love the comparison to Galadriel--just like Galadriel wants to use Nenya to keep Lothlorien as it is and prevent her people from "dwindling" into a "rustic folk," so Oropher wants to preserve the Silvan Elves in amber, so to speak. People change, that's the way of things--and if people want to prevent themselves from changing--well, they can't, but they can pretend to themselves that they can. But they definitely can't prevent others from changing, as Oropher and Nimrodel and Galadriel want to do.
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Ms.Whatsit! Glad to meet someone else who's interested in the Sindar Lords :) I certainly agree with you that Oropher must have been charismatic and passionate, and I can go for stubborn too - since that seems to be a common trait in elves - but I'm not sure I'd agree with irrational. I think he has a point. The epidemics of alcoholism, despair and suicide among the Australian Aborigines, or the Native Americans, following Western cultural imperialism illustrates what *can* happen if one culture walks in and stamps out another. Add the Doom of the Noldor to that mix and I can't help but feel that it's Amdir and Celeborn who are taking the big risk, not Oropher. But on the other hand to draw away completely, to keep yourselves seperate in a kind of apartheid... that's not right either. It's confusing! Who'd have thought that a fantasy world could be so plagued with real problems? :) Many thanks again!
Morwen Tindomerel · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 1
It occurs to me that blaming the Longbeards of Moria for the crimes of the Firebeards of Nargrod makes about as much sense as blaming the Sindar for the kinslaying. Remember what happened to Denethor and his army! Poor Oropher is going to pay a high price for his neo-primitivism. Yeah! Go Celeborn! "It's called life, Oropher. Growth. And though it means we lose some things we once loved, what of it? We gain others." A lot of Elves seem to have trouble with this - and not just the Amanyar - but not our Celeborn! I think you see Elrond as more Noldo than I do but sending the the adherents of the Miridain party to him is a good idea. They really don't fit into a Sindarin or silvan realm. But that doesn't make them bad - except for the arrogance of course - why shouldn't they want to live in their own way and pursue their own interests?
Author's reply
Thanks for the review Morwen! Yes, it struck me forcibly, when Amdir disapproved of Nimrodel's blaming Amroth for the wars, that the Sindar prejudice against the dwarves was the same thing. However it is *slightly* different, because no elf knows what it's like to be a dwarf from the inside. They can't, therefore, say with confidence that there isn't a sort of lurking timebomb of betrayal inside every dwarf - as they can with other elves. Orcs are innately evil, after all. So perhaps dwarves are innately treacherous, and the difference with the dwarves of Moria is just that it hasn't happened yet? I think Oropher would say that the price was worth it. My problem was that these elves were all so persuasive that by the end of it I have no idea who was right. All of them, maybe. I take Elrond to have been raised by the really uber-Noldor Maglor, so I feel that when he pledges allegiance to Gil-galad he will be mostly ignorant of his Sindar roots. And I wasn't suggesting that all the Noldor were bad - Celeborn's only taking the troublemakers away; the ones who took part in the coup, or feel that they *ought* to rule whereever they are, simply because they are Calaquendi. The ones who can get along with other people and don't have to take over are staying.
Kaga · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 1
'But at the thought darkness rose up and smothered him. Death filled his nostrils like water, and he heard from afar the voice of Oropher calling out from a barren land, where his bones lay in a pit beneath the moon. Agony came over him, and numbness. Reeds pierced his body like thousands of spears. He gasped, opened his eyes and saw the curtains move in the many windows of Amroth's house and the sky like beaten gold through the door. "You will," he said, calm and sure at last. Glad that one at least was spared. "Yes. I think you will."' Is this a vision that Amdir sees? And why one? Doesn't Thranduil counts too? Wonderfully written story, although I can't really see Nimrodel critising Amroth; she did follow him to the sea through her heart lay in Middle Earth
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Kaga! Yes, this is a vision Amdir sees of his and Oropher's deaths in the Last Alliance. Amdir tends to think of himself, Celeborn and Oropher as three friends. Thranduil and Amroth are the children of his friends - so they fall into a seperate category. Hence, out of the three friends who met today, only one will be left. Strangely enough, Nimrodel *did* say all those things to Amroth - it's in Unfinished Tales; "she would not wed him. She loved him indeed...but she was of the Silvan Elves, and regretted the incoming of the Elves from the West, who (as she said) brought wars and destroyed the peace of old. She would speak only the Silvan tongue, even after it had fallen into disuse among the folk of Lorien;" So she was something of a nationalist resistance leader - but not a tremendously successful one, since most of her countrymen seem to have been delighted to welcome Amdir and Celeborn.
Sulriel · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 1
Looking across the clearing he caught Amdir's gaze, and though his words were harsh, his face spoke of concern. "I would certainly not have opened my country to their refugees as you have. Ware lest you draw their curse down on yourself! 'To evil end shall all things come, which they begin.' The Powers themselves have said it. And yes, I wish it was not so, but it is. Doom is what you welcome into your country, when you give shelter to the Kinslayers." a wonderful portrayal of Oropher separating a pair of hounds fighting over the same hare - all a matter of avoiding the fangs. LMAO! Such perfect characterization. How many times can I say it before you beta my reviews for being repetitive? I love your insight and depth of characterization. You have captured the bittersweet nuances of the Age, the temperament and the dedication of the Kings to their people and their world.
Author's reply
Thanks, Sulriel! I do feel that Oropher tends to get a raw deal in fandom too - he tends to be seen as having an irrational hatred of the Noldor. But it occurred to me that he might have damn good reasons for not wanting them around. And indeed, the survival of his kingdom 'untroubled' into the Fourth Age rather supports his policy. And your reviews are as the rising of the stars; a delight that does not grow wearying! I'll take any amount of praise with a big grin. I'm so glad you liked it!