Time's Turnings by daw the minstrel

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meckinock · 16 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Good grief, Daw, I just barely got this one reviewed. This chapter just reinforces the importance of what I like to call the "One Time Zone Rule." As in, that's the minimun level of geographic separation required between grown offspring and their parents. No wonder the males spend so much time "deployed" in the far reaches of Mirkwood! Pity their poor wives, though - chained for all eternity to their in-laws. It's enough to make one start to think longingly of the sea... I pity Galelas. Playing second fiddle to Tinar AND watching his parents embarrass themselves in front of one of Thranduil's sons. At least Eilian has a renewed appreciation for his old man. Now if only Sinnarn did! That kid is going to have to learn everything the hard way, just like Eilian did, I'm afraid. It was touching that both Legolas and Sinnarn envied their friends' "normal" lives. Legolas would have liked a normal life, I think, but he's such a trooper. No wife and elflings for you, Legolas, but hang on a few hundred years and you'll get a hairy opinionated dwarf! Sometimes it is so good that we can't see the future. Sinnarn is so lucky that he has Alfirin for a mother, to cover his bony little elvish tail quarters. Wonder if that causes any marital friction? Legolas laughed. “We would not know what to do with a daughter in my family.” People without daughters ALWAYS say this. But people without sons never say the opposite. Why is that? Well, off to read the next chapter. I can never get caught up...

Author's reply

All I can say is elves must be more tolerant that we are because living in "houses" would drive me wild. But really, through most of history, people have lived in extended families, not always in the same house, but near one another. In some ways, you'd always have help and support. But you'd sure have to learn when to speak up and when to let things slide. Sinnarn is indeed learning things the hard way, but maybe Ithilden will benefit from his father's experience and his own with Eilian. Or maybe not! And I suspect that Sinnarn is a topic of some dissent between his parents. I feel bad that Legolas is lonely for so long! No wonder he latched on so tightly to his friends in the fellowship. That thing about daughters is interesting. I hadn't thought about that. Maybe people find girls more complicated?

thechevin · 16 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

I found this chapter fascinating the way you show the importance of family structure in the life of elves and how different families function within that society then there was the way the trio saw different families, only Eilian seemed grateful that his family was not similar to the one he glimpsed I suspect Galelas might feel similarly While Sinnarn is definitely showing signs of 'Eilianitis' good job his father does not know why he was late thank you

Author's reply

I've been curious for a long time about what family structure might mean among elves, especially when combined with their deathlessness. One thing is that I think it must be hard to know when others see you as an adult. Sinnarn felt that Ithilden had no need to know what he'd been doing other than that he'd been with his friends, which Ithilden already knew. And as a parent, I think that may be wise. Some things you're better off not knowing!

Manderly · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

There was a bit of everything in this chapter. I can't help but notice the different paths that Legolas and Annael have taken since their childhood together. It's almost as if Annael is in a different generation now, happily bonded and ready to become an adar and I still see Legolas as a youngling somehow. Ah, Tinar - what can I say about him other than the fact that his parents must be total twits if they actually believe their son to be as invincible as he claims. But then, the way that Tinar has turned out must have received much encouragement from his parents along the way. I just feel sorry for Galelas. No wonder he is so competitive - it's probably the only way that he thinks he can make his parents notice his existence. I really do wish that you would have Tinar's parents harass Ithilden about the promotion. It would give me endless satisfaction to see them deflate under Ithilden's lashing tongue. BTW, Eilian's silent thoughts about Tinar during the visit were hilarious (somebody would actually marry Tinar?!) There is so much of Legolas (and Eilian) in Sinnarn. And Ithilden is remarkably like Thranduil in the way he interacts with his son.

Author's reply

Annael does seem older and more responsible, doesn't he? I think it's because he's had to be that way. Of course, he was also ready to be that way. He's a great friend really. You want me to turn Ithilden loose on Tinar's family? You're so cruel! I don't know whether he'd be more incredulous or furious at their interference, but he wouldn't put up with it long. I think there's a lot of Eilian in Sinnarn and it doesn't surprise me that Ithilden is like Thranduil. Thank goodness Alfirin is there.

The Karenator · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

What an interesting look into the lives of the ordinary elves. I'm not surprised that Legolas longed for the unencumbered life that Annael has. He's always wanted a simpler life, but does well with accepting that he has a duty and responsibility to his father's people. I guess he can't help a little twinge of longing on occasion. Galelas's family is a hoot. I loved this line:“But I forgot! You have been his captain, so you know first hand what a dab hand he is with weapons.” I'm sure Eilian hasn't forgotten the time he's spent in Tinar's presence...captain or not. And Tinar's wife! She fits right in. Yeah, somebody else can bring in the wash. Just who does she think is going to do it if she doesn't? Wounded Galelas? Tinar's not home. I doubt Dad would lower himself. So in essence, she's telling her mother-in-law to get it herself if she wants it in. What a sweet daughter-in-law. She and Tinar deserve each other. Dysfunctional elves...what a sight. I'm with Eilian...kind of makes one grateful to be the son of Thranduil. Sinnarn is a hormone damaged teenager. He's a chip off the old uncle block too. His jumping contest was right out of the Book of Eilian. But like Legolas at this age, he wants to be with his friends and is rather out of sorts at being required to 'hang' with the old folks. Oh, the horrors of adolescence. The minstrel's song was amusing. But even more amusing was your admission of paying for Ithilden's song to Alfirin. Your sins will find you out, your minstrelship. The L.A. Times! Really, go big when you draw attention to yourself. I can see why you write them yourself now. You did pretty good for a self-admitted poetry no-talent. And you managed to embarrass the Thranduilions. Good chapter. Fun, but revealing. Sometimes you have it better than you think. And others, you might think someone has it better, but even when that is evaluated, you can find that you have much to be grateful too. Nice. Looking forward to the next chapter. Karen

Author's reply

I love Annael's family. And oddly enough, he's the head of it. Isn't that peculiar? Of course, that means he's responsible for seeing that enough fish is dried to last the winter, for instance, but it also means that he's treated with respect at a young age, just as his father was. I think Annael is ready fo rit. Basically, I agree with you about Tinar's wife, but then, if I'd been living with his family for, say, thirty years, I might be a little crabby too. You want the wash? Get it your damn self! I think Sinnarn is a lot like Eilian. To me, Legolas has always been more serious about being a warrior. Sinnarn wants to be a warrior too, but that's because he thinks he'll be having adventures and doing what he likes. Boy is he in for a shock! The LA Times thing was just bizarre. My family thinks it's a hilarious story, even my son, who supposedly was getting the poem.

sofia · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Aw, poor Sinnarn. I really liked the minstrel's song. I found it quite humorous. -sofia

Author's reply

I'm glad you thought the song was funny, Sofia. That's the only kind of poetry I can write, I'm afraid. Sinnarn isn't so badly off. He did kind of screw up and things could be worse. He could be a member of Galelas's family.

esamen · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

I couldn't help it. I just had to review again. “…and terror strikes the foe,” sang the minstrel, “but the ladies his softer side know.” Everyone laughed and clapped and the minstrel moved on to Eilian. “As bold as a boar in a battle, as merry as otters at play, Lord Eilian pleases the maidens, who admire him whichever way.” LOL . . . then stop and think, when I have read verse this BAD before? Daw, you know I bow down in worshipful respect to you with every new story you pull out of the hat, but . . . my God . . . is this really what they sing at Thranduil's feasts? Can't someone go stop them?

Author's reply

LOL. Bad poetry is a specialty of mine! It's the only kind I can write. I knew I couldn't do anything really well-written here so I had to make it parody like. Did I ever tell you about the time I bought the poem for Ithilden to recite to Alfirin at their betrothal? I think it's in "Prodigal Sons" somewhere in the opening part. Anyway, the creative writing students at my university write valentine poems as a fund raiser. You fill out this information form about your valentine, and for $5, they write you a poem. So I filled one out for my husband and then one for Alfirin. Some of the information was hard to fill in. Who is the valentine? My son's fiance -- a little lie but my characters are sort of like my children, right? Where did they meet? They grew up near one another. What's their favorite place? The woods near home. What do they like to do? Sing. And dance. In the woods. You get the idea. So they wrote me the poem and all was well. Then I went home and there was a message on my answering maching from a reporter for the LA Times. They were covering Valentine's Day stuff and had heard about this poetry write in. Would I call them back? Or would I give them the contact information for my "son" so they could ask about this poem? I was horrified. I tell one little lie and it ends up in the LA Times! Is that fair??? I don't think so. So I wound up not answering my phone at home or work for two days until Valentine's Day was past. Now I write my own bad poems.

Dot · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Oh, this is a clever chapter! I really enjoyed seeing the glimpses of the friends and friends’ families. It was strange to see Annael and Legolas talking about such domestic matters as drying fish, fertilising gardens and building onto cottages. I can really see how matters that are all commonplace for Annael now really have no place at all in Legolas’ life. It was so lovely to see these two together again, though, chatting and teasing one another. I’m as glad as Legolas is that Annael can speak of his father again. I suppose having Beliniel by his side must have really helped him. *sniff* I still miss Siondel, though… Elowen is as wonderful as ever. I get the impression she loves to see Legolas and Annael together again too and, of course, she’s always been fond of Legolas herself anyway. I imagine Beliniel and Annael would make excellent parents. I’m so glad Elowen does get a grandchild, even if it isn’t for another while yet. Emmelin is very young in ‘Fire and Shadow’, isn’t she? Just old enough for a pony, if I remember correctly. It must be hard for Legolas to watch this very cosy scene and it’s sad to see him long for a normal life but I think he’s right that it’s just not the path he’s taking at the moment. In some ways he’d find it just as hard as Eilian to settle down and step back from danger, it’s just that in Legolas’ case it’s duty more than excitement that keeps him going. I found it a really lovely thought that by doing what he does, people like Annael’s family can be safe. I’m still feeling slightly astonished by Galelas’ family even though I knew that they had to be fairly obnoxious. I know exactly how Eilian feels to want to physically shake them off. They kind of remind me of the Dursleys (in Harry Potter) a bit. They’re just… *shudder* I remember Corfildor being a bit of a pain but the mother and Gewiel are right pieces of work as well. I though Gewiel was “timid and needs guidance”?? My heart went out to Galelas when he seems so delighted to see Eilian. It sounds as though he was a bit reckless but I thought it was very mature of him to tell Eilian that he made a mistake. He really seemed to look up to Eilian and wanted to impress him so I’m glad that he still appears to be learning and improving even though he doesn’t serve under Eilian any more. “Of course, I know you officers like to show respect to warriors who have been as brave as Galelas has.” Oh, how completely mortifying! I felt bad for Eilian but I just had to laugh at how speechless they left him. And no sooner had one said something utterly ridiculous than someone else would come in the door and be just as arrogant. Thank heavens Tinár wasn’t around. That was very helpful of the Orc who gave him that oh-so-serious wound that time. That is if it was an Orc and not Gelmir… “There is no one sweeter tempered than Tinár.” I’m not even going to touch that one… “The one you should ask about this is Ithilden.” Nice one, Eilian! I can just imagine it. He’d be nice and polite for about three seconds before practically booting him out the door. Which Calith would be holding open. Oh! Corfildor should ask Ithilden at the feast. That could be fun. I really do feel for Galelas having to put up with that lot. I wonder, though, how Thranduil would feel if he knew that Eilian saw Galelas’ family and decided that his own father wasn’t so bad after all ;-) I suppose Sinnarn is too young to be friends with Amdir yet. But it’s great to see the people he is friends with at the moment (why is it always 3 friends?!). I groaned at the part about Sinnarn liking the game because of the very fact that it is “frightening”. That sounds familiar. I remember Thranduil hoping Eilian had a son who did this kind of thing but I bet he ends up with the well-behaved elflings. Poor Ithilden and Alfirin! Concealed rocks? Is that to scare Sinnarn or is it a hint I should remember for possible future reference?? I like your phrase “westering sun”. It seems Alfirin has been trying to smooth things a little before the inevitable argument by leaving his clothes out so that he wouldn’t be any later. Mothers are good that way. Ithilden doesn’t seem either surprised or worried. I imagine he had a fair idea of what might have delayed his son. Ithilden seems to have the same book on being a parent as Thranduil does. That’s not necessarily a bad thing really, although it would be nice to see him do things differently after frequently having moments of thinking he could do better than Thranduil. But I think he was right in this case to punish his son. Sorry Sinnarn. I’m sure the responsibility lecture of which Ithilden is apparently fond includes something about only having the rights and privileges of adulthood when one can accept the responsibilities too. But apparently Sinnarn isn’t quite ready to listen yet. “Sometimes she treated him as if he were an elfling.” I think I’ll let Ithilden explain that playing dangerous games, being late for an important event and then sulking because he doesn’t get his own way isn’t exactly the most mature behaviour! Besides, if his friends misbehaved I’m sure their parents wouldn’t let them freely enjoy themselves either. I love Sinnarn, but I have to say that I think he’s just feeling sorry for himself… Maybe Legolas should tell him about the time he was put under guard. Leaving out the part where he still managed to escape, of course. I love that minstrel! And I like the fact that he is famed for his humour and yet Thranduil is still pleased to have him sing of his sons. I take it he’s not the guy who sings rude things about the king in the Glade. He’s summed Legolas and Eilian up rather nicely, anyway! So they’re all comparing their own positions with others’? I notice the only one who is entirely thankful is Eilian because he really did see someone worse off. Of course, nearly anyone could look at Annael’s family and feel a little envious. And poor old Sinnarn is just going down the same road his uncles and father did before him. Thranduil really needs to tell him a few tales. I suppose Legolas has to go back to his patrol now? I do love character chapters the most but I guess excitement has its place too ;-) Oh, and I meant to say as well in answer to your last reply – we do use the phrase “blarney” and, in fact, it originates from a town called Blarney, which is just a few miles outside the city where I live! There’s a piece of useless information for you ;-)

Author's reply

I love Annael's family too. I wanted to give the sense that he is the head of his household (odd as that is to think about) and has adult responsibilities and respect. He's just such a sensible person and always has been. I too feel bad about Siondel. What was I thinking?? Emmelin has to be born in the next ten years or so to be the right age for a pony in "Fire and Shadow," so I'd say they don't have to wait long by elven standards. Galelas thrives away from home, in the company of warriors who don't act like his family. That's pretty sad actually. It took me a while to decide what Tinar's wife would be like, and I got to it by asking myself what a person who would marry Tinar might be like. I decided she was ambitious and dim enough to take him at his word when he said he was wonderful and going places. If he thought she was timid, he must have learned better by now. Beliond was always skeptical about that anyway. Ithilden is not the person to suffer fools gladly, so if Tinar's family goes near him, they're going to get their ears pinned back. I can just imagine how incredulous he would be that they were bothering him. He probably wouldn't even remember the incident afterwards. He'd just kick them around for a while and then go back to work. I had to go back and count up ages and Amdir is 20 years older than Sinnarn. That's close enough that they become friends once Sinnarn is a warrior, but right now Amdir is already a young warrior so that seemed too big a divergence. Sinnarn is still pretty young and Ithilden is probably right to be trying to guide him. I think that he probably understands Sinnarn better than Thranduil ever understood Eilian, and it's a good thing that Alfirin is there. Legolas is heading back to his patrol in the next chapter and we'll get some action eventually. I can do this kind of thing for only so long and then I have to drop a tree on someone or something. I thought that blarney was Irish, but I thought it might be American Irish, if you know what I mean.

Brazgirl · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Poor Galelas! His family is a terror! I mean, look at his father. No wonder Tinár is a pain to everyone. As soon as he entered the room I wished Eilian was out. Legolas, Legolas... I like when he wonders about being just an ordinary elf but right away he knows he is not, he is the son of the King. His friendship with Annael is so nice. I like them both. Though I think Annael was fooling himself with that story of small room! Sinnarn is so reckless! So Eilian! Hahahaha poor Ithilden! He had to deal with two Eilians in his life. Tell me, who is the worst??? But I am sure he loves them both. The feast part was nice, especially the minstrels' song. And I also liked when Legolas called his horses 'spirited'.

Author's reply

Galelas's family is indeed a terror. They're just so insensitive! Galelas is actually the best one of the lot and how sad is that! I love Annael and his family. And I too think he's fooling himself about why he wants the extra room. In "Fire and Shadow," set about 20 years down the road, he has a small daughter, and given the way elves age, that means she has to be born within the next 10 years of so. :-) Ithilden must be wondering what he ever did to get saddled with a younger version of Eilian. Maybe he comforts himself by saying that Eilian turned out OK so Sinnarn might too.

French Pony · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

I suppose that one's perspective on whether or not one would prefer to live the non-royal life depends on the friends one has to observe. Both Legolas and Sinnarn have friends with lovely warm homes and plenty of free time to play, swim, fish, schtup their wives, build additions onto the house, or whatever. But Eilian's look at Galelas's home wasn't nearly so pleasant, and he ends up being glad about the family he has. It's really all in the perspective. Legolas and Sinnarn would happily be non-royal only if they could choose the right living situation. And I think that social status isn't even the half of it. If Galelas's family were the ruling family, they'd be just as awful. Even more so, because Tinár would be the crown prince for real, and not just in Nana and Ada's eyes. It seems that Tinár and Galelas are fairly close in age -- they're both of them between Eilian and Legolas, yes? Being that close in age must make the constant comparison even more galling, since they were both kids at the same time, and there wasn't a chance for Tinár to move out of a phase (I'd say "grow up," but he doesn't seem to do that, ever, not really) before Galelas entered it and got compared, inspected and rejected. The parents even compare who got more seriously wounded? Someone is on the Elvish version of crack. . . dangwath, wasn't it? I'll bet Galelas was an accident, and his parents dealt with it by ignoring that it had ever happened right up until he died. At least that was something he could beat Tinár in. Jumping over fast-running rivers seems to be a popular thing with adolescent Wood-elves. Eilian liked to do it, didn't he? Ithilden must be horrified. He probably helped raise Eilian and was just thinking he'd got it mostly done, and he'd never have to deal with a kid like that again. I suppose that, since the Wood-elves have a society where daughters go to live with their husbands' families, that the girls must "grow up" faster than the boys do. It isn't quite true that It was nearly unheard of for a Wood-elf to leave his family’s house. It'd be nearly unheard of for a male Wood-elf to leave his family's house. The girls do get shoved out of the nest eventually. That's probably why your female characters tend to be more together than your male characters. The boys stay at home, being frustrated quasi-adolescents for eons unless they're in the army. And even after they marry, there they are, back with Nana and Ada. But for the girls, they know just when their childhood will end, and for them, that wedding ceremony is a sign that they're really adults now and ready to leave childhood behind, literally. I think it'd be interesting if Eilian did produce a daughter one day. Legolas is right; the family would have no idea what to do with a girl. Especially Thranduil. He's so used to having his family just added to and added to and being able to preside over a dinner table filled with ever more faces. What would he do when his granddaughter married and left? The poor King would be heartbroken. The only person who's ever left that table was Lorellin, and it took the family a long time to get over that. And in the future, Legolas will leave and probably flabbergast his entire family by doing so. But he hasn't left yet. Maybe his leaving might make his potential niece's leaving easier. Or harder. You can never really tell with that sort of thing. It strikes me that the Elf system of political rule by family requires and encourages the prodution of a certain robust personality type. You have to have a particular kind of ego to rule over a House filled with adult offspring and still keep everyone sane. Your Thranduil seems to have it in spades, for his family runs smoothly for the most part, even if there are a few bumps with having two unmarried postadolescent sons at the same time. (My Thranduil doesn't have that type of ego at all, which is why it's good that his family is so much smaller.) Of the three princes, I think Eilian would probably be best at ruling his own House. He's a people person the way Thranduil is, able to care and care honestly about whoever is placed under his jurisdiction -- his visit to Galelas only confirms that suspicion. He's also a good commander when he has to be, and he has mastered the art of setting aside his own adventure-lust when he's in command and responsible for others. Ithilden has the command thing down, but he's not good with people the way his father and brother are. In his own quiet, responsible way, he was pretty insufferable until Alfirin came along. She has that knack that good Queens (and she's basically the de facto Queen here) have for smoothing social occasions by her very presence but being invisible while they do it. She even sets out Sinnarn's clothes to smooth his way with Ithilden when he is late. Legolas, on the other hand, is very much a people person, but he's hardly a charismatic commander. Even through The Lord of the Rings, he defers to most people, including not-yet-king petty-mortal Aragorn. While it's true that he spends the book not being on his own turf, that doesn't stop, say, Boromir from throwing his weight around, or Pippin and Merry from telling Sam what to do. Legolas just accepts his place at the Fellowship's kiddie table with the grace of one whose Ada hasn't quite let him go yet. But he's learning more than they think, for one day, he'll be in charge, not only of his own House, but of his own colony in Ithilien. Shock the pants off of everyone, that will.

Author's reply

Isn't it odd that it's Eilian who decides his own family isn't so bad when he's the one who's so often at odds with his father? I guess witnessing the sanctification of Tinar would do that for you. And it isn't that the parents think Galelas is worthless. They know he's better than everyone else -- except Tinar. That's a good observation about how female elves leave home and join their husband's family. Of course, if there's already a Queen Bee there, that could be difficult too. I wouldn't have wanted to do it. Elves must be nicer people than we are. I never even thought about how Eilian's daughter would leave her family one day. That would be difficult for them all, for Ada Eilian not the least. I think he'd be pretty protective and not very trusting of young males. I've wondered sometimes about why Legolas was able to make that break and leave. I suppose he'd seen a lot of ME by then and was devoted to his friends. Still, it couldn't have been easy. I really like your analysis of how Thranduil's family would do a heads of a household. I think that Ithilden does rather well with Sinnarn, but that's with Alfirin's help. I say that because the kid turns out okay and Ithilden is willing to let him be young and without a lot of responsibility for a fairly long time. He's just not willing to let him fail to live up to the responsibilities he does have.

Bodkin · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

'Sometimes she treated him as if he were an elfling.' Of course he never BEHAVES as if he were an elfling, does he? He's never late for royal events, risks his life in silly pranks, leaves his wet clothes on the floor, sulks when scolded, avoids doing his homework and any of a wide-ranging list of behaviours that suggest he's longing for the rights of being seen as grown-up without wanting to take on any of the responsibilities! I just love watching Ithilden suffer the difficulties of rearing a child just like Eilian. As, I'm sure, does Thranduil. And he can indulge Sinnarn and then enjoy handing him back to his sober son! Question: All these Houses in which the elves live - and remain. What has happened to all the grandparents/great grandparents/great great grandparents? Yes, a lot of them will have died at Dagorlad, (and since) but not all of them - and some, like Annael and Siondel, actually marry and beget offspring quite young, so some Houses must contain quite a few generations. I was wondering the other day about Legolas's maternal grandparents, and Galelas's awful family made me hope that his idiot father has a less idiot father and grandfather who actually outrank him in family authority. And, as far as living together is concerned - easy enough for the royals in their stately stronghold,where they can have their own sets of apartments, but do you think the lesser elves would be more likely to live near each other in cottages rather than actually co-habit? Maybe Gewiel would move in as she and Tinar are childless (and hopefully going to remain so - Mirkwood has enough poor parents!), but once elflings arrive a sort of sub-household would be built nearby. I hadn't realised that ellyth come in shrewish - but no normal gorgeous beach-babe of an elleth would have Tinar, so I suppose Gewiel's less charming performance is understandable. Although living with the worshipful company of Tinar admirers must be enough to get on anyone's nerves. Has she thought about developing a sudden unexpected sea longing? She might be able to escape him for a few ages. However, seeing the bride of Tinar has made me sympathise with his desire to put off his leave. Maybe it's not because he feels the Eastern Patrol cannot do without him. Maybe it's self protection from his - what was it - shy bride who cannot make decisions without him, because he is the master of his household. (Tinar? No, perhaps not.) I love Annael and his family. They are just so well-balanced and loving and the sort of family everyone would want (if only their fathers didn't keep getting killed off). Spending time with Annael is so good for Legolas - and probably part of the reason that he ended up such a well-balanced elf. The conversation about Legolas's wild horses is such fun - I wonder if that's why he got on so well with Arod - someone else had done the training, so he didn't have to. “We would not know what to do with a daughter in my family.” I do hope this is prophetic. Eilian really needs to provide his adar with a granddaughter. And Eilian as a parent would be like setting a poacher up as gamekeeper. Actually, I think Alfirin needs a daughter, too. And wouldn't it be deliciously ironic if Eilian's daughter was a perfect little maiden and Ithilden's was Sinnarn/Eilian squared. Although actually, I want to see Eilian tearing his hair out. This is far too long. I'd better shut up.

Author's reply

Oh my goodness. Your second paragraph is so similar to a speech I had intended to have Ithilden deliver when the feast was over! That like about wanting rights without responsibilities is almost word for word. I decided not to include it because I thought I had made my point at the feast itself but you must have ESP! I've thought that about maybe families living in different cottages close together and so on. It makes sense. And actually, I've got some stuff in my list of stories to write about Legolas's maternal grandparents. I've decided that they live in a village. She had been to visit them when she died. I should write about that side of the family sometime. That was exactly how Tinar described his wife when they were betrothed. Beliond was a little skeptical at the time as I recall. If she wasn't a crab before she married him, she'd sure be likely to become one afterwards. I love Annael's family too. Writing about them is very satisfying. They're so ordinary in the very best sense of the word. They treat one another with affection and respect and just get on with living. I think Eilian needs a daughter too. Someday!

Bodkin · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

I've got to say it, even though I don't have time to say more at the moment - POOR SINNARN!!

Author's reply

Aw, he doesn't have it so bad! He could live at Galelas's house, after all.

Jay of Lasgalen · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Is it possible for an elf to be reincarnated before he's dead, I wonder? Because Eilian has certainly been reincarnated in Sinnarn! The jumping-over-the-river game was exactly what Eilian's done in the past, right down to falling in and narrowly missing rocks, and then being late for a formal appearance. Ithilden is Not Pleased with him. Poor Galelas - he still can't please his family. Even when they think he's been wounded honourably (not in a rash act) Tinar, the Wonder Child, has been wounded more seriously, more bravely, more ... poor Galelas :( I liked Eilian passing the buck to Ithilden over Tinar's lack of promotion, and his thoughts of the dismay of Tinar's colleagues if he postponed his leave! Jay

Author's reply

I thought that Sinnarn was a lot like Eilian too. Poor Ithilden and Alfirin. Neither one of them could have anticipated this! And they didn't deserve it either! Sinnarn is lucky that Ithilden had Legolas to practice on and thus is at least a little wiser about how much you can and can't expect from kids. That doesn't mean he's going to let this slide. Just that he's not surprised that it happened. Being Galelas would be horrible. His family is sure he's wonderful because he's theirs but a few words is all he gets and then it's on to the REALLY wonderful son. I think Eilian is hoping that Galelas's family really does ask Ithilden why he hasn't been promoted yet. :-)

Elena Tiriel · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

P.S. Legolas' sadness over missing a normal family life really tugged at my heartstrings... - Barbara

Author's reply

I love Annael's family. Every time I get to send Legolas there for a visit, I'm happy. I still feel bad about killing off Annael's father.

Elena Tiriel · 15 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Hee, hee, hee. I just love all these meaty characters and families! The contrast between Annael's family and Galelas' -- well, 'nuff said! "Of course, I know you officers like to show respect to warriors who have been as brave as Galelas has.” Eilian took a quick glance at Galelas, who had turned scarlet, The difference between Tínar and Galelas, in a nutshell. Would Tínar have the self-understanding and common sense to blush? *snort* Yeah, right... “Yes. It appears to be only a flesh wound though,” Corfildor said. “Galelas is lucky. Tinár once took an arrow so deeply in his side that he was bedridden for two weeks.” Gewiel sniffed. “He was very irritable too, quite difficult to care for.” “Nonsense,” said Galelas’s mother vigorously. “There is no one sweeter tempered than Tinár.” These people have about the same level of sensitivity, common sense, and "grounding" in the real world as the House of Windsor. (Sorry, hope I don't offend anyone, but the comparison -- which you may or may not have intended -- is just too striking to ignore...) (In the LoTR world, it does seem curious to me that extreme inbreeding didn't seem to hurt Aragorn at all...) Galelas opened his mouth to retort, but Eilian decided to save him the trouble. “The one you should ask about this is Ithilden,” he said wickedly, picturing his brother’s reaction if any of Tinár’s family should ever be so bold. Bad, evil, mean Eilian! Bad, evil, mean author! *snicker* (You will write about the confrontation when it occurs, won't you? Promise???) Interesting thoughts about families being organized in (immortal!!!) houses. I, personally, couldn't wait for my own rite of adult passage -- moved out when I was 20 and never regretted it... Guess you can tell whose family mine resembled? ;-D Sinnarn's rash behavior reminds me a lot of Eilian racing and nearly missing that long jump... At least, he learned that he didn't want to be self-destructive from that experience... Sinnarn has much farther to go... The only thing worse than a "less-wise" wood-elf is an extremely immature "less-wise" wood-elf... Ithilden's doing his Thranduil II act again... I'd sympathize with Sinnarn, except that I never had so much testosterone poisoning (being female) that I'd ever do anything so risky... Sorry, just rambling away... (I think the fact that I get so caught up with your characters -- unlike any other stories I read -- is a tribute to your creative talent.) - Barbara

Author's reply

Galelas's family is just so awful that they are a joy to write about. I don't have to worry about making them three-dimensional either, thank god. I have so many OCs running around now that I'd just as soon keep a few of them in the background. If any of them approaches Ithilden about promoting Tinar, I will certainly show it! Ithilden doesn't suffer fools gladly and these folks are fools of the first water. You stopped me in my tracks with that comment about Aragorn and inbreeding. He's so smart and brave and so on that that idea just never crossed my mind. But of course, the Dunedain must have been pretty inbred. They didn't have a lot of choice. I wonder what the history of small communities really is on that? I guess there were often customs to lessen it, like not marrying someone from your own village. If I had to live with my birth family forever and ever, I'd be homicidal. I can only assume elves are wiser. I'm sure Thranduil, like you, is enjoying watching Ithilden deal with an Eilian-like son. LOL

Rede · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Hello Daw! Well...you know, you really get me into loads of trouble! I think I just spent the better part of three weeks reading every single one of your stories. I can't remember the last time I went to bed before two in the morning. Plus, I am now unable to read ANY OTHER Legolas story. You have far surpassed all the rest. Thank you so much for showing us these. You are a genius. A very funny one also. Which story was it that Annael's father died? Perhaps I missed that chapter. Hearing that in this chapter made me almost cry. You know you're a great writer when a SUPPORTING character dies and you have your audience in tears. So congratulations, I am in love with your work! You said that you were a technical writer to me. That was a field I was interested in, and still am, before I found a calling in speech pathology. How do you like it though? Do you specialize in any subject, like science or technology?

Author's reply

Holy cow! I am so sorry. You must be so overdosed on these stories! I really do enjoy writing them (which is why there are so many). Can you wait here a minute while I go wake up my husband and make him come read the part where it says I'm a genius? OK. I'm back. I wickedly killed off Annael's father in "Tide of Times," the one with the forest fire. He was leading the Home Guard troops and they were fighting alongside the Southern Patrol and Eilian when the Orcs came. Does th at ring a bell? This must all blur together. I actually teach tech writing to college students and edit a scholarly journal about it. I enjoy what I do, most of the time anyway. We require our students to have a minor in a technical or scientific subject and gets lots of folks as majors who are interested in computers but don't want to be computer programmers. They can get pretty good jobs with just bachelor degrees even in the current economy.

Firnsarnien · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

“My horses are not ‘half-wild,’” Legolas said with dignity. “They are spirited.” OMG! I think this line was the jewel of them all! What a beauty, made me laugh and fit Leggy just like a glove! :) Poor Leggy, on one hand, he is blessed to be prince and part of the family he is. Yet, how much of normalcy he's missed out on as well. Sometimes I feel sorry for him that he had to miss that part of growing up. Sinnarn as well, he sounds just like Leggy did at his age. Wanting so much to be with his friends and to not have "obligations". They are so alike in many ways although, hmmmm, I don't know if I could see Leggy being so reckless that he would do that dangerous jump Sinnarn did. Then again, if he were with Turgon and that mischeveous little Elf talked him into...yup...he just might! LOL And Ithilden's comment to Sinnarn at the end of that scene, he sounded so much like Thranduil it was eerie! LOL Poor Galelas too. If he weren't surrounded by such an...unusual...family, he just might have come around sooner. It is good to see him actually *coming around* though, after all he and Leggy went through in their youth. Too bad he and Leggy never really had much chance to mend fences completely before the end. *sniff* Why is it Daw, that you insire such devotion in characters that are gone, hmmmm? *sniff, sniff* It seems only after they have died, I realize how much they will be missed and how many opportunities will be lost! And yes, who in their right mind would marry Tinar? :P *sigh* Feeling a bit meloncholy over Galelas right now. *sniffle* Do hurry and write another chappy quick to put me in a happier mood, will ya? ;)

Author's reply

The idea for Legolas's horse troubles has just sort of grown up by accident for me. I think he wants a horse to "bend his will" to Legolas's freely, by choice. I think your assessment of the mixed nature of Legolas's "blessing" is right. His family is really a good one. They love one another and they pay attention to one another, but Annael's family is just so normal and loving. I'm still really sorry about killing his father off. And I think that Ithilden is a LOT like Thranduil. They think alike (for the most part) and that's why they get along. I feel kind of bad about Galelas too. In some ways, he was lucky that he wasn't the son his parents doted on because then he'd have been completely ruined instead of only difficult. I have an outline for the next chapter but haven't done anything with it yet. I seem to be writing slowly these days. School started again. Sigh.

emjo · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Arg, I wanted to set Galelas' family straight! I am loving this story Daw. Can't wait for more!

Author's reply

Galelas's family is appalling. The only thing to do is what Eilian did: Run like the wind. Unfortunately for Galelas, he lives there. I'm glad you're enjoying it, emjo.

Alice · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Oooh, nice comparison of the families. Poor Sinnarn though. And poor Galelas! Especially poor Galelas; he needs lots of hugs. And yay we got to meet Tinar's wife! I have to admit, I was feeling so very, very sorry for her before this imagining some poor, shy little woman totally cowed by her arrogant husband and completely disregarded by Tinar the great. Then she opened her mouth and I watched all the pretty sympathy fly away like doves in the wind. Bye-bye pity. So, good chapter. I love Annael's family by the way. Everyone should have a family like his. I'm lucky in that my parents are a lot like his. Well, much more nerdy and decidedly odd but still wonderful people. I like the descriptions of smells of Annael's family's cottage. Cooking food is one of the best smells in the world. It helps convey the nice warm, cozy atmosphere of Annael's cottage. And they do need to have a baby soon. I get really involved in your stories. Like I was so sad for Galelas when reading that line about his family being a permenant pain for him. Stupid, unappreciative family. I think Galelas should be entered in the elf adoption agency. I'd adopt him. I'd feed him, I swear! Oh, also my first thought upon witnessing Sinnarn and company's "little game" was " Teenage boys are SO stupid." Seriously, today in physics we were fooling around with an electric generator (with the teacher's supervision and encouragement which sort of makes me wonder what he thinks of us) and the boys formed a chain and we're shocking each other. Here's the gist of what they said, " OWW! Let's do it again!" Sinnarn reminded me of that little incident. So, all in all a good story. I loved some of the character development that went on with Legolas like the bit about him and his horses. Very nice there. I enjoyed this chapter a lot. And I do hope that Eilian comes back and visits Galelas again. He should smuggle him out of that cottage for a bit. Oh, and I do think Legolas's family would figure out what to do with a girl fairly quickly. Perhaps you should give them one? Come on, give Alfirin a niece or a daughter to put in pretty dresses. You know she'd so be into that. Also, I so think that Tinar's father should bring up Tinar getting promoted with Ithilden. And that Calith should be allowed to watch. From a distance perhaps for his own safety. So, again, excellent chapter. Update soon!

Author's reply

Sinnarn feels like "poor Sinnarn" but he's actually pretty lucky to have the family he does, although I guess he does have some heavy obligations. Still it could be worse. He could be Galelas! It wasn't until I wrote this story that I finally decided what Tinar's wife was like and actually I was tempted to make her kind of picked on, but I tried to think of reasons someone would marry him, and one that came to mind was that the woman was ambitious and was dumb enough to believe Tinar when he boasted. So I got this pretty obnoxious person you saw before your. I always enjoy the opportunity to write about Annael's family. I still feel bad about killing his father. So the teenaged boy part struck you as realistic and you've just been observing them in their more or less natural habitat? Good! Your physics teacher is very brave! You're making me laugh about that scene between Tinar's father and Ithilden. I can just see the incredulous look on Ithilden's faces followed by "Get out of my office!"

Esamen · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Hmm, this is different. Galelas's disfunctional family, and Sinnarn acting like Eilian. . . Tinar's mother's comments about his sweet nature and competence as a warrior are great inside jokes for all of us. I'm just following along, trying to put the pieces together and guess where we're going! I'm looking forward to Chapter Three!

Author's reply

The plot for this story hasn't started to unroll yet, so it's hard to put the pieces together I think. I've been trying to establish themes and hinting at what's going to happen, but I hope to get that going more in the next chapter. In the meantime, I feel like I'm still influenced by the last story I wrote that was more about feelings than anything else. I enjoyed that!

elliska · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Oh, poor Sinnarn. I seem to recall Legolas getting in similar trouble when he was off kissing maidens during a festival. He was equally irritated with the requirement that he stay with his family. I would have loved to see Legolas' reaction to Sinnarn's little problem. Of course we saw his thoughts with regards to Annael's family. I loved that scene--it is so nice to see Annael so happy. He is very lovable so he deserves the peace. Eilian in Galelas' home was just hilarious. He did a much better job of keeping his mouth shut on the topic of Tinar than I think anyone else would have been able to manage (including me). Now we know where Tinar gets it. It is really fun to see these scenes from the families of Eilian and Legolas and Sinnarn's friends. Now that I am thinking about it, you know whose friendships I'd like to see explored more? Ithilden's. That last story really got me thinking about him. Now presumably he had less time to have a lot of buddies since he grew up with more responsibility. But he must have friends his own age. I'd like to see more of that one day. Enough babbling. I am really enjoying this story. I fear the orcs discussion, knowing you. But I'm enjoying the peaceful family life while I can. :-)

Author's reply

I think having to sit with your family would really be a pain when you're 16, and that's if they weren't the king and his family with everyone watching you. I figure they're all sitting facing the people and I pictured Thranduil in the middle with Ithilden, Alfirin, and Sinnarn on his right, and Eilian and Legolas on his left, so it was hard for me to get Sinnarn together with his uncles at the feast. But there's always the next morning! I love Annael's family and get all happy every time I can write about Legolas visiting them, no matter how old he is. But poor Galelas! I like your observation about Ithilden. We do need to see his friends more. In a way, the only "friend" I've ever shown him with is Alfirin. I really hate to write about these OCs without Legolas around, so I'm stuck with flashbacks and it's hard to do justice to their childhoods that way. There will be more action coming soon.

Ms. Whatsit · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

You know, having songs sung in your honor and all that sounds nice, but it would actually be quite embarrassing, wouldn't it? Galelas is one unlucky Elf. That's what sucks about families that never grow old and die--you're stuck living in a joint family where you're never allowed to be the Adult In Charge until the day you die. In some ways going off on patrol for years must be kind of a relief. I bet lots of Wood-elves would do that. It's nice to see Annael all happy and lovey-dovey. He's such a nice Elf.

Author's reply

I love Annael. I love his whole family actually, and still feel guilty about killing his father. I've been thinking about what immortality would mean in terms of becoming adult and living in these families. It's very hard for us humans to conceive of. Elves must learn to adapt differently or they'd go nuts. Maybe that's what happened to the sons of Feanor! Having songs sung about you wouldn't be bad if you didn't have to sit there while it happened, I think.

Karri · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 2: Other People's Lives

Oi! I would not want to be in Sinnarn's shoes. I think he is even worse than Legolas at that age, and Legolas has a les stern ada.

Author's reply

How funny that Thranduil is the less stern one! Don't forget that Sinnarn has Alfirin though. She'll keep things from getting too glum.

perelleth · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 1: Family Time

Funny you mention the hobbit! I received my first copy almost 30 years ago as part of my "Wine on arts" education!!! ;-) (I still have it, my father wrote inside "Dorwinion is NOT a commercial label"!!) You see, I was truly ashamed of making this comment!;-)

Author's reply

Your father had read The Hobbit! That's wonderful.

perelleth · 14 January 2005 · Chapter 1: Family Time

How good to have you back on stories so soon!! Hope holidays were long enough to get started for the new year... See, there's something I had been thinking to comment about your stories, but somehow it struck me as a kind of silly comment...but now I take advantage of this calm beginning to tell you how much I enjoy the importance your elves seem to give to those special social gatherings around meals and wine. Wine has been part of my family's trade for generations, and that familiarity with enjoying a good vintage, or sharing a cup as an everyday treat is part of our family's socialization process too, and family meals are kind of ritual too. (we have at least three official gathering appointments a year for the extended family, and when home, each of us too try to gather people together for evening meal at least. Around a bottle of good wine, of course!!!) It helps keep track, and I'm sure Thranduil finds it a very useful way to maintain the family cohesion... It's nice to see this overbusy family enjoying some quality time together, and see how each one's problems and points of view reflect even then. I've not yet finished "The warrior", but then it is so funny to see Ithilden struggling with an adolescent son when Legolas has hardly left that stage... (hoho, bet Thranduil is having the time of his life, spoiling his grandson!) As I gather from other stories, I take it that Eilian and Celuwen eventually get married, though it seems a difficult proccess, and surely none of them is helping! ;-)... I find Eilian an endearing contrast to the rest of his family, and he must feel kind of ... estranged? from all those serious, respectable and somehow overresponsible elves.. (there's a line that called my attention on that,when Legolas reflects "He was only too aware that he always represented his father, even when he was simply sitting on a river bank listening to music.") It seems as if Legolas thought Eilian was not careful enoguh, or proper enough.. wow, I clearly symapathize with this poor middle child, who undoubtedly does his job as good as expected, but makes the horrible mistake of being a bit too carefree and happy.... mmm.. he is truly his mother's child, am I correct? So, it's great to have another of your stories going on... and I'm looking forward for more family meals and shared wine-times!!! ;-) ( and all the happenings in between of course!!

Author's reply

That interesting about wine in your family. As it happens, my husband and I enjoy it too, but what set me writing about it in Thranduil's family is the events in The Hobbit. We're told there that the Elvenking enjoyed a good vintage, and we actually see Elves get drunk, something I might not have anticipated. The first couple chapters of this story will be domestic until I have to send Legolas back to his patrol, and it is nice to see them having some quiet time together for a change. I think of Eilian as more wood-elfy than either of his brothers is and indeed as more his mother's child. I kind of feel for him as he sees Thranduil and Ithilden sharing mutual respect and understanding, when he must know that he is so different from them. His natural state is happiness, I think, but he can be self-destructive, and his father is often frightened for him. I hope you continue to enjoy getting acquainted with him.

Tapetum Lucidum · 13 January 2005 · Chapter 1: Family Time

You painted a pleasant picture - everyone relaxing in the garden and singing. We rarely get to see the sons of Thranduil so at ease. Oh Homework, Oh Homewor, I hate you, You stink! - opening line of a poem my son's teacher put on his folder. I guess it is true for everyone. I am glad Alfirin came to Sinnarn's defense. The honey remarks are true for all males. Ithilden will wish he had kept the business in the office. Eilian was interested to hear about Galelas and apparently Legolas was as well. Jealousy is a normal thing and I don't blame him for envying Galelas' time with his favorite brother. Luckily Ithilden was saved by Thranduil. I am often reminded of Bill Cosby's musing on grandparents - they are old and are trying to get into heaven, that's why they are so nice. I guess it doesn't work with elves. Indeed there is a world of difference between the way he treats Sinnarn and the way he treats Legolas. At least they can commiserate together. Legolas is being stubborn about the horse and Thranduil is only making it worse. Poor Sinnarn - got ditched by his uncles. It had to be a little comforting to watch Thranduil treat them like elflings. It was very accurate as well. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone fetch you wine and glasses every time you went out? I could get used to it. The party on the riverbank sounded fun. I really liked the difference between the brothers' handling of maidens. Eilian was indeed a big flirt - though you could see his thoughts easily turning to Celuwen. Legolas had been burned before and was much more reserved and careful. Which one is older? I know Eilian tried to remind me but his actions spoke louder than his words. Good start!

Author's reply

Hey, you're all caught up! I know I hate homework. I like teaching but I want it to end when I leave my office. I got to know Alfirin a little better while writing that last story, and she strikes me as the kind of person who likes to feed people. I want her to come to my house. And Ithilden should notice that Legolas asked a very perceptive question about why he was still in the same patrol. Of course, he did get to skip the whole Home Guard thing. Thranduil knows that Sinnarn already has parents who are seeing to it that he grows up to be an upstanding citizen (except for that little wine incident with the dwarves a few years down the line, of course). So he is free to just love the kid. But it must rock his sons back on their heels to see it. LOL about Eilian not being as wise as he thinks he is. He's a total fool really. He's waiting for Celuwen to decide she loves him and, of course, everyone knows how much hanging out with another maiden is going to help with that.