Reviews of Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

LisaG · 14 July 2010 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

OMG, that was hysterical! I could clearly picture the 3 of them in the room, Aragorn intently watching each of his friends as things unfurled. King Elessar is indeed wise to be able to leave both Legolas and Gimli speechless! :D

Author's reply

Thank you so much for the review! I'm glad the characters were easy to picture. Without any action to break things up, I tried to work in a lot of physical details about the conversation, so it's really comforting to hear you comment on that. Thank you again!

Cairistiona · 18 October 2007 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

It takes an author of rare talent to combine philosophy, comedy and a sporting event, all in one story. I thoroughly enjoyed all aspects of this, from the subject of the debate to the volleying of insults to Aragorn's scorekeeping (I especially loved his countdowns). This was a fun and thought-provoking read. Well done!

Arya · 13 January 2006 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

This story was really amusing. How Aragorn can tell his friends really amuses me. This one had mirth in it wich I enjoy. Now that I think I would be with Legolas.

Author's reply

I'm glad you liked the humor in this story. I tried to keep the debate balanced, which to me is more interesting than having it be one-sided. I think Aragorn has the right of it with a middle-ground approach. Both Legolas and Gimli have views which are a bit too extreme in my opinion.

Avalon Estel · 6 March 2005 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

This was highly amusing as well as something that got me thinking. I think my favorite line was the part about Gimli saying that elven hair repels sanity. I loved the interaction between the characters, and all the little details of their movements and reactions. Wonderful job, as usual. I read "Beyond This World" on FF.net, and I was crying so hard that I couldn't make myself coherent to say why I was crying. You are a wonderful writer, Thundera. I applaud you!

Author's reply

Glad it made you think! That was one of the purposes behind it. That and I'd just had a similar conversation with a friend and wondered if I could translate it into fic form. The details/movements around the conversation were an experiment based off a recommendation, so I'm glad to see they worked. And thanks for the comments about BTW! It's very appreciated! Many thanks for the review!

Megan · 12 January 2005 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

Well...this mad emy head hurt reading it, lol, it was very good though, even if I didn't understand everything theysaid. Aragorn definitely lost, no competition. As to who one though, well, I want to sayLegolas, simply because I'm *slightly* obsessed with him, but I think it was more likely to be a draw. Although, Legolas kinda had the last word with his heaviness of dwarven beards comment... Very good, I await more of these vignettes with aniticpation...

Author's reply

Someone actually did a count of the insults, and it turns out that Gimli won by one point. I was trying to keep it a draw myself because I really couldn't say whose view I supported more. I saw valid points in both philosophies. Ah well. And I'm glad that even though you weren't drawn into the philosophy, the rest of the story was still fun. I was trying to hit both worlds with that. I've got kind of a lay fascination with philosophy myself, but I know quite a few who don't. So I'm gratified to hear that I seem to have struck a balance.

Megan · 12 January 2005 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

Well...this mad emy head hurt reading it, lol, it was very good though, even if I didn't understand everything theysaid. Aragorn definitely lost, no competition. As to who one though, well, I want to sayLegolas, simply because I'm *slightly* obsessed with him, but I think it was more likely to be a draw. Although, Legolas kinda had the last word with his heaviness of dwarven beards comment... Very good, I await more of these vignettes with aniticpation...

Ithilien · 7 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

Oh, good golly! This is the kind of debate that makes my head hurt! I never did well in my college philosophy courses, and now I remember why. Which came first, evil or the feeling evil....? Augh! Mark me down for a D minus right now. Bravo to you for even considering both sides... er, all three sides ...um, all four(?) sides of the debate. And bravo to Aragorn for getting out while he could. Let Legolas and Gimli go on about it until the wee hours of the morning, breaking it down in the end to the superiority of Elves and Dwarves...because that is what it is really about, isn't it? Silly Aragorn thinking there was something more to it than that. I did enjoy the mental volley he had going though -- point won by the elf... and now Gimli takes control... and so on. Well, he will probably think twice before he gets himself involved in such a debate again. I hope this helped your writer's block. It gave me a good chuckle.

Author's reply

Hey there! Unfortunately, my writer's block is still in full force. But it helps knowing that I at least got this fic out. That's a good thing. And I'm glad you could get a chuckle out of this despite the philosophical underpinnings. Personally, I couldn't get enough out of my college philosophy classes and I actually had to rein myself in for part of this debate because Gimli and Legolas kept wanting to explore seven or eight different sides of the issue. But you're right. In the end, it's all about which is better: elves or dwarves. But I give kudos to Aragorn for trying to bring in something bigger. ;)

nessie6 · 5 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

Another wonderful fic! I kept thinking 'Don't do it Aragorn! It's suicide!' But he handled himself remarkably well, considering the beings he was debating with ;-) But anyways I was wondering something... What happened to M.N Theis on ff.net? I only noticed that her stories were gone when I saw that 'Perchance to Dream' was missing from my favorites. Now I'm extremely upset. Anyways this was great update your other stories asap! ~nessie~

Author's reply

Many thanks for the review. And yes, poor Aragorn was doomed from the beginning, but he seemed to come out on top in the end. As for M.N. Theis...I wish I could give you an answer, but I haven't heard from her personally for...at least eight months. I know she and her sister closed down their websites about six months ago, but they were both still writing up until two months ago or so. You can still find Perchance to Dream over on Eternal under the name Maggie (www.intense-illusions.net/eternal/), but my personal favorite (The Veiling of the Sun) isn't there. I'm currently looking for a copy of that somewhere.

Larner · 3 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

I find myself wanting to discuss the subject myself. When as story makes me wish I were in the room myself, that is a pretty good indication it is fairly well written.

Author's reply

Thank you! I'm glad you liked it enough to be drawn into it like that. That's quite a compliment. It's actually a discussion I've had with philosophy and political scientist majors, so hopefully it reflects some of those conversations. They're always fun.

Bodkin · 3 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

. . . The choice of the first creatures of darkness . . . hedging. Depends who they were. And how they were corrupted. Elves to orcs - through captivity and torment - did they have choice? Maiar - perhaps they chose to follow Morgoth because of his initial glamour and charisma. Wolves to wargs, and the fell beasts - did they choose to turn to evil? Or as beasts, were they unable to resist corruption? Did they not understand the difference between good and evil? The Nazgul? Yes, they chose evil - although it was disguised as power. Does evil exist separate from those who are corrupted by it? Perhaps. I've been listening to the Silmarillion and the fall of Numenor - and I feel really sorry for the slaves rowing the idiot Ar-Pharazon towards the Undying Lands. What choice did they have? Or the common soldiers?

Author's reply

Elves to Orcs... Well, that was where I originally had the debate going, but then I decided it might be too sensitive an area for an elf with Silvan ancestry. So I veered away from elves and orcs entirely, aside from Gimli's comment. But even so, in the extreme draft form when they were debating elves and orcs, it was noted that at some point in their breeding, a choice was made. It might not have been conscious or voluntary (Legolas was arguing for both before I rearranged the story) but a line was crossed and the creatures ceased to be elves. The question was how, when, and why. Same thing with the Maiar. Even if they were initially drawn by charisma, it was no secret that Melkor was attempting to reinvent Iluvatar's song. Even if they didn't know the full consequences, they had an idea of what they were getting into. And I think there was probably a point for each one where he/she stopped, looked around, and debated turning back because of how far it was going. And at that point, a choice was made. But again, the question was how much influence Morgoth had on that choice, whether it was an inevitable choice for that particular Maiar, or whether they would have ignored it completely had it never been brought to their attention. Interesting points you bring up, though. As for the poor Numenoreans...I like to think that there was a definite divide between the Faithful and the rest of Numenor, but I've read very convincing fics about the common Numenorean who really didn't care what was going on politically. So the common soldiers...maybe they knew what they were doing. They had to have known that going to the Undying Lands had been expressly forbidden for years. But swayed by both Ar-Pharazon and Sauron...who knows how clearly they were thinking?

Shaan Lien · 2 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

I think Gimli's question was rather vague and they talked in circles around the matter that couldn't actually have an answer because of the question's inate ambiguity. Oh well. It was amusing. Aragorn's random thoughts made me laugh out loud (or rather giggle or chuckle) especially with his counting.

Author's reply

I'm glad Aragorn amused you. I was trying to put in something for the people who would like that kind of debate (specifically, philosophy students and ESPECIALLY religious philosophy students) as well as something for more practical people. Gimli's question in its first form _is_ rather vague, but I think he and Legolas narrowed it to the point where it became a fairly classic religious question of what is more important: agency or the influences that compel the acts of agency. Of course, I could be wrong about that, and I did try to rework it to fit into a LotR setting. So maybe that's part of the problem. *shrugs* I suppose it's how you look at it. I'm glad you liked Aragorn, though. Thank you for the critique and the review!

docmon · 1 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

yay! "It still remains that dwarves would grow taller if they gave up their beards." ::cackle:: LOL! Indeed! monica

Author's reply

Huh... Seems to me you might have seen this story in an earlier form... ;) I think I recall you liking that line earlier.

Hildestohl · 1 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

I'm impressed that you decided to write something like this because it was indeed a challange! I've never read a debate of legolas' and Gimli's that carried on that long. Great job. That was very fun. Excuse me while I check out other stories written by you. :)

Author's reply

I hadn't read a debate that long, either, and I was incredibly nervous about posting the story. It seems to have gone over well, so maybe I'll embark on other "adventures" like this. I'm very glad you enjoyed it, and thank you for the review!

Wantanelf · 1 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

Well, you succeeded. What a great debate. I think you really hit all three characters on the head. I just love Aragorn counting in his head before Gimli and Legolas speak. I could just picture all three of them sitting around the fire drinking and talking. You really have a knack for getting in these characters heads. I hope you worked around your writer's block because I'm looking forward to more of your stories. Keep it up!!!

Author's reply

Writer's block persists, but it's fading. Yay! I'm glad you enjoyed the debate and the characterization. I was trying to create something of a different "voice" for everyone just to reinforce characterization. I have no idea how well it worked, but I'm glad you think I got the characters down. That's a great relief. Thank you for the review!

Bodkin · 1 December 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

What a great story. Even the room has taken on a character of its own, and I can just see the participants. I can picture Legolas and Gimli turning, identical expressions on their faces as they combine against Aragorn - and feel his reaction. The theory? One of those really difficult ones - I don't know that any of the creatures of the dark really had any free choice. They didn't start off a blank sheet with the possibility of going either way - they were born corrupted and had little chance to alter that. Great story - good point to leave, Aragorn.

Author's reply

Ah, but what about the _first_ creatures of darkness? Creatures, Maiar, and spirits that Morgoth corrupted? Did they choose to become corrupt? And if so, how much of an affect did Morgoth's influence have upon their corruption? Regardless, I'm glad you enjoyed the story and I'm glad you liked Legolas and Gimli teaming up against Aragorn. That was actually my favorite part.

meckinock · 30 November 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

I had to go back and read the beginning again to see how much mulled wine these guys could knock back and still carry on a philosophical debate about the nature of evil. Legolas and Gimli obviously had been saving up for this one for a long time; I don't blame Aragorn for trying to stay out of it. But he couldn't...quite...restrain himself, could he? The line about Legolas and Gimli's last argument being about the color of the sunset was great. This is how guys express affection! What I really liked about this story was the comfortable, warm sense of three old friends who know each other very, very well, and play each other like an old fiddle. Legolas and Gimli are like an old married couple - fighting like cats and dogs with each other but turning against anyone else who joins the fray. And poor Aragorn- he knows better, and he did it anyway! Poor guy, they were against him and he hadn't even figured out which side he was on! Oh, well, at least they let him off the hook when he'd quite had enough. I was glad to see the little nod to Halbarad, too. Great story!

Author's reply

Thank you very much! Glad you liked the nod to Halbarad. That's actually a shout-out to a story I've got in draft form that involves a quick little debate between Halbarad and Erestor with a possible appearance by Gilraen. I'm not 100% sure of her involvement yet, though. Anyway, I love that you felt this was a plausible way for Legolas and Gimli to spend their time, and I love that you felt this was a scene between very old friends. I tried to get it to flow that way, but by the time I'm done, I'm usually too close to the writing to know if I've succeeded. The fact that you think it sounds familiar and close is very complimentary, so thank you for that! And after so many years of friendship, I imagine that Legolas and Gimli would turn into quite an interesting "couple," if you could call it that. They know how to push each other, they know when to do it, and they know when to back off, too. Works for me!

Estel_Mi_Olor · 30 November 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

Wow...I did not think it could be done. No offense, but I sincerely doubted that anyone could write a coherent argument between Legolas and Gimli in which something profound was discussed. But you did it. *Awe*. This is another example of your higher order thinking, I believe. That was a beautiful argument. *Sigh* wish it could be renacted on some debate team. Firstly, what a great question for them to debate! Let me see who I agree with...I agree with the fact that evil is a conscious choice-ie Legolas-and that the evil being must come first for it to radiate evil. I think that makes sense... Secondly, it was very amusing to have Aragorn as an impartial observer in the beginning, but then was forced to join the discussion by his own curiosity. It was even more amusing that Legolas and Gimli banded together against him. Hehe. But the crowning moment was when the King of Gondor actually won. But you see, he didn't win the entire debate. I believe he was disqualified from the first one, so he can't claim complete victory. :) Cheers and thank you for this great fic! I hope your writers block is cured! Thanks again!

Author's reply

Many thanks! I wasn't certain I could create a coherent, profound argument either, but I really wanted to show that the debates between Legolas and Gimli weren't always silly, spontaneous, inane things. Sometimes they were meaningful discussions that could intrigue others. As for agreeing with one side or the other...Legolas is pleased to have your support. For myself, I fall somewhere in the middle. I basically gave Legolas and Gimli the two extremes of my own take on the matter of evil, so I can't side with either one. I think Legolas might make a better case for his side, but I also think Gimli got off some of the better insults, so they're pretty evenly matched. And poor Aragorn...I suppose he'll think twice about jumping in next time. And I agree that he couldn't claim complete victory. But partial is apparently good enough for him. Many thanks for the review!

daw the minstrel · 30 November 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

I have to admit that this is exactly the kind of conversation that I avoid if I can. My practical mind looks at both arguers and says, "What are you talking about????" But I do like the interplay of the characters here. Poor Aragorn!

Author's reply

I've had quite a few roommates who roll their eyes when I wander onto philosophical paths, so I can't blame you at all! In fact, part of my goal for this fic was to make it accessible to people who were more practical than fanciful, so the fact that you liked the interplay of the characters makes me very happy. Glad I could offer you something. ;)

elliska · 30 November 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

I loved this from Aragorn's point of view. Very well done. And I loved the topic of their debate and the development of it. Definitely a scene I can imagine all three of them taking part in.

Author's reply

Glad you liked it, and I'm very happy that you could imagine the three carrying out this scene. I tried to make it feel as though this sort of thing was familiar to all of them by now and it had become a dance of sorts that they knew very well. I also wanted to make the topic of the debate interesting, so I'm ecstatic you liked it. Thank you so much!

French Pony · 30 November 2004 · Chapter 1: Of Elves and Dwarves and Late Night Philosophy

Yum, the endless-debate game! I have a special friend with whom I play this game a lot. Long-distance, over the phone. It's worth every penny. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? That's for tomorrow night, I suppose. And Aragorn will know better than to get involved with the pros until he's better at it. My very favorite line was this: Legolas made a show of considering that. "What causes you to think that the first Warg was a he?" Not only am I an ethnomusicologist, I am a feminist as well, and I'm behind Legolas all the way, just for bringing up that issue.

Author's reply

And after the chicken and egg debate, I suppose our intrepid duo will ask the question, "How many Maiar can dance on the head of a pin?" Is there no end to the madness?! ;) Legolas is grateful for your support, incidentally, and assures you that he is now going to make every effort to identify the gender of spiders ere he shoots them so as to track males and females. He also gives you points for bringing up the ethnomusicologist tidbit again, as do I. Many thanks for the review!

Reviews (20)