Yes, Loved it, loved it, loved it!!!
It was a great reconciliation between the two of them and an even better meeting of the two cultures. It sent shivers up my spine when you discribed Celeborn looking like a Teler- I knew what was coming then.
I can see Fingolfin's view though, but I didn't realise about all the Sindar servants before i simply assumed they all came over from Valinor, but your idea makes a lot of sense to me.
I especially loved the discussion between Galadriel and Fingon-very poigant to my mind and really brought the difficulties of their relationship home from a Nolor point of view, having concentrated on the Sindar side of things.
I think in the end he and Finrod could come like each other very much dispite all their differences and would probably enjoy arguing semantics with each other.
Another highlight was the practicalness of his proposal so Celeborn- he doesn't have the time or inclanation for flowery proposals and really sets himself apart in her mind from her other admirers and this was my favorite quote
"Long I have been Galadriel in my heart. I am glad that now the whole world will call me by your name." It says a lot about her change in attitude and hoew she much rather prefers Doriath now.
Author's reply
Thanks so much, Ladybird! Glad you liked it so much :) I hadn't thought either that the Noldor had lots of Sindar servants until I re read the bit in the Silmarillion about the language ban, and realized that it could only work if the majority of people in those kingdoms were Sindar - with a ruling class of Noldor. If there were only Noldor, then Quenya would have survived as an every-day language, not just a 'learned' scholar's language. It starts to look a bit like England after the Norman Conquest - the ruling class are speaking one language, and the great majority are speaking their own, different one. Thingol's edict just makes sure that the rulers speak the same language as those they rule, which is a good thing, I think ;)
Celeborn just didn't seem the type to bother with flowery speeches, particularly as he's pretty certain she's going to say yes :) I'm relieved you found it endearing and not annoying of him
Marnie :-)
Ms. Whatsit
· 2 May 2004
· Chapter 16
Another amazing chapter. My favorite part was Rilmiriel, I think. It's great how you created such a minor character, whose role is really just to show the extent of Sindar pride, and made her come alive. I also like the way you brought back the light/dark imagery when you described her caught between the Noldor and the Sindar.
And so Nerwen becomes Galadriel. This is going to cause trouble, I bet. Now that she's started to come to terms with what she did in Aman and so is Celeborn, I guess the next hurdle is the matter of what everyone else will think. I'm looking forward to reading it.
Author's reply
Thanks, Ms Whatsit! Rilmiriel did seem to rather take over didn't she? ;) It wasn't planned that way, she just insisted that she was on the spot so she might as well do it.
As for public opinion re Celeborn and Galadriel, well, they've decided that they'll just wait until it goes away. So I hope you won't be terribly disappointed that next chapter is going to be something completely different ;) (If I can work it out).
I'm saying no more . Thanks again!
Marnie :-)
Karri
· 2 May 2004
· Chapter 16
Nice tension and beautiful romance. I've always rather thought that the Noldorin Princes such as Fingolfin and Turgon accepted (at least after the initial shock of the decree had passed) Sindarin as the language of their realms. (But then, I also like to think that Sindarin is the language of Rivendell as children of mixed cultures tend to learn first the language of their mothers – which for Elrond was Sindarin, and because I always picture Gil-Galad speaking Sindarin since he was raised in a Sindarin community –- so what do I know.)
It seems to me that though they departed Valinor with the Feanorians, they had no great love for them by the time they reached Middle-earth and would almost have used the language of their Sindarin subjects to spite the sons of Feanor – but that could just be because I like Fingon, Fingolfin, and Turgon somewhat better than the Feanorians.
Anyway, with that digression, I will now return to the chapter. ;-)
I think this is my favorite bit: "In Aman they would," she said, looking down on the rough structure with a swell of sudden, strange affection, "they would say 'we shall never make its like again!' And the river would be left bridgeless so that all could remember what had been lost."
It made him laugh, delighted. "I do not wonder you wanted to leave! Here, we would build it anew - but stronger. If there exists the will to try again, even ruin does not have to be the end. It can precede a new beginning."
It really exemplifies the difference between the kindreds. The Noldor cling to the old and memories of what has been lost, whereas the Sindarin remember what was lost but move on and build anew.
Author's reply
Many thanks for the review, Karri! I did try to show Fingolfin and Fingon as being less virulent than the sons of Feanor - I can certainly see their point of view. Whoever you are, being told that you can't speak your own mothertongue any more must be something of a blow, but I agree that Turgon in particular seems to have taken to it without difficulty. Gil-galad had a Sindarin mother too, if you go with the Orodreth version of his parentage, and with them being born quite a long time after the ban, I'm sure Sindarin was their first language.
I'm very glad you liked the bridge bit - that was one of my favourites too ;)
Thanks again!
Marnie :-)
Crimson
· 27 April 2004
· Chapter 15
Your last few chapters have been wonderful and well worth the wait. I always thought that the best way for Galadriel to get over her morequendi hang-up was to spend more time with her Noldor relatives. I mean, sure, they've all "seen the light of the Two Trees" but they're all a**holes and she can't stand them. After a few days in their company she'll be forced to admit that Tree light or no Tree light, she'd rather be with the Sindar. (Can't you just see the comedic possibilities here?! After listening to her Feanorian cousins sing their millionth song in praise of the Silmarils, I can see Galadriel getting up and screaming, "Oh, for the love of peace, they were just some bloody rocks! Get over it! I can't believe I crossed a glacier to listen to this shit! I should have followed Dad home when I had the chance! Finrod, where's that stone knife Celeborn gave you? I swear to Varda, I'm gonna use it on this damn minstrel if he doesn't shut it!")
All this to say, great work and I can't wait to read more!
Author's reply
Many thanks, Crimson! There's a lot of waiting around with this story because I don't really enjoy writing it, and sometimes it's a huge struggle, so getting reviews like this really help me carry on with it at all.
You're so right! I'm really loathing writing Hithlum, largely because everyone's so horrible and they're all at each other's throats. But hey! Once this chapter's done at least the romance can go on the backburner for a while. At least, until we get to the whole Daeron-Luthien-Beren thing ;)
I'm hoping to get the next chapter out either on Friday or by Monday, and I must say that I am definately feeling like taking a stone knife to one particular character - a *blunt* stone knife.
Must stop complaining! What I mean to say is thanks again,
Marnie :-)
NLR
· 27 April 2004
· Chapter 15
Will we get another chapter soon? Please!
Author's reply
I'm aiming for the end of this week, though it's proving to be quite a struggle. This chapter is not proving to be easy to write. Look for it on Friday, but expect the unexpected ;)
Marnie :-)
henadiel
· 19 April 2004
· Chapter 15
This is a great story, esp. the parts about Celeborn and Galadriel. I can imagine that it went something like this. Look forward to your next installment.
Sphinx
· 10 April 2004
· Chapter 15
You have this ability to make all the million names and places in Silm sound so compact – so much more readable than how they’re given in canon. Its true, what you said, about this being a political chapter, and it only goes to show just how *comfortable* you are with the text of Silm. It is a daunting task for anyone, and for the first time, this fic moved beyond the confines of Doriath.
Mist curled about its base, for this was a land of cloud and pearl, but today the drifting fogs were thin, and the upper portion of the tower stood above them, lit by strong sunlight, dazzlingly white against a clear blue sky.
*runs back to Silm to read the parts about Hithlum* It never sounded so nice there.
One day, you will teach me the geography of Beleriand. And I will try to understand. Please?
And Celeborn lording it out on Fingolfin’s harbour. *cheers* Lovely touch there.
It was Galadriel’s chapter, one of her more human ones. Everything she said made sense – from her shock, and her anger to find Celeborn there, to a vague sort of trepidation as to what happened next, and to her alien-ness in what was a Noldo realm. Very nice.
How naturally he handled power, and how restrained was his use of it; subtle, almost invisible. What havoc he could have achieved if he had chosen to inflame, rather than to soothe!
Yes. That’s *exactly* it. That is Celeborn to the fullest.
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Sphinx! But I don't deserve praise for knowing the Silm - I just wrote this chapter with the map on my knee :) And I remembered that one theory about why the grey elves were called that was because the Noldor met them first in Hithlum, which was a misty, foggy sort of country.
It's funny how people go; 'Galadriel loves power, I wonder why she married a nobody?' and don't go; 'Galadriel loves power, I wonder if Celeborn had more power than we tend to think?' But obviously it's the second one I'm going for ;) He just doesn't show off about it as much as she does!
BookWorm848
· 8 April 2004
· Chapter 15
Wow. I want more. I need more. I did not just finish reading Oak and Willow. I read it the day before yesterday and could not stop thinking about it. I was so impressed that I hunted it back down today to write you feedback. Do you have an update list? May I be included on it if one exists? Points that I like about your story include characterization, Celeborn is PERFECT he has a subtle power and strength, he has pride and he is as in character as I have ever seen. It's hard for someone who had that few lines to be in character, but somehow you manage. Galadriel is perfect too, she has a strong sense of pride and self worth that she won't put aside unless Celeborn makes it easy for her. This isn't the best review I've ever written, but I cannot express well in words how good I think your story is.
PLEASE write more. And thank you for sharing it with me.
Author's reply
Thanks for the review BookWorm! I'm delighted that you liked it so much you felt you had to come back to it :) I think there's a feature on SoA at the bottom of each chapter where you can sign up for automatic alerts when that story is updated. That's how I follow Coriel's 'I Return' anyway, and it seems to work pretty well.
I'm so glad you like the characterization :) Celeborn's character is pretty much based on his scenes in LotR - though, given that he's just heard that the last useful Maia on the side of good is dead, there's a Balrog on his doorstep and the Ring of Power right where Galadriel can get hold of it, I suspect that what we see of him in that first scene is Celeborn-on-a-bad-day ;) I just extrapolated (quite a lot) from that!
Anyway, thanks again for the review. Next chapter should be arriving in about a fortnight, unless something unforseen happens.
Marnie :-)
Coriel
· 6 April 2004
· Chapter 15
Oh, golly. Yet another clash of two worlds! The next chapter should be an interesting one.
I like that bit about Celeborn not needing any regalia to make him a prince. I've considered that point quite often. You meet a few of those kind in history, but some just aren't cut out for that job. And I'd rather see a prince in the woods or doing something practical than sitting around wearing his treasury all over him. :)
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Coriel! This chapter and the next one were supposed all to be the same one, but then it just all got unexpectedly long. Next chapter, I hope will be a bit more dramatic. But it was nice to have a breathing space, I think ;)
As for the prince thing, I'm assuming that the silver hair is sufficiently rare for it to be a badge of kinship with Elwe - so that he couldn't, even if he wanted to, deny that he was from the Teleri royal line. In which case he doesn't need any other regalia to tell people who he is.
Mind you, this chapter is him arriving after several weeks of sailing - the posh outfit is in the bag he's carrying. He gets to wear it next chapter :)
Bejai
· 5 April 2004
· Chapter 15
Oh, very nice. A much quieter chapter after the fireworks of the last two, but it was time for some introspection. And quite an unexpected, interesting chapter it was!
This is what makes your stories work so well. You get at all the undercurrents and politics at work in the world. The relationships between people, between races, between kingdoms is necessarily complicated, but so often unseen. You makes these ideas pop, and make them very clear.
I enjoyed your description of Galadriel -- more Sindar now. She even sees the gems of the Noldor in a new light, and there is a hint of disdain for their affected, pompous way. I particularly loved this: 'How coarse she has grown - did you mark how her shoes pinched her in the dance last night. I'll wager she's been barefoot these last hundred years.' You're not usually going to write into the details of the story that your characters are running around in bare feet. But you tell us here, once, and it is absolutely charming, and completely right.
And I was very impressed with how you spun the politics of the Sindar in the Noldor kingdoms. Loved the image of Celeborn holding an improptu court. The Noldor lords are going to be in for a bit of a shock when their trusted servants answer them only in Sindar! I liked the subtlety of the power that Elu -- via Celeborn -- wields here. He could demand rebellion, but does not. Nice. Very nice.
A subtle, expressive, important chapter. I don't think that anyone else has ever written the Sindar in the Noldor lands, and it needed to be done.
Author's reply
Thanks, Bejai! I'm relieved that you liked it - you know that I was worried about it. This whole business of Thingol's ban on Quenya does shed a very different light on the power-politics of the 1st Age, I think. It hadn't occurred to me before how amazing it was that *all* the Sindar obeyed him - even those who were living in Noldor kingdoms. And that set me to thinking that (a) they never actually thought of the Noldor kings as their own kings; Thingol remained their king no matter which Noldor ruler they served, and (b) if that was so, he probably could have crippled the Noldor kingdoms whenever he chose, just by ordering the Sindar living there to rebel or leave or whatever.
That's something which is never made explicit in the Silm, but which I thought was an interesting point to make. It fits in, I think, with the way the Sindar nobility just walk into kingdoms in the East after the War of Wrath as if everyone involved thinks that they have every right to them - it fits with this idea of native authority/head of clan-ship. If you see what I mean.
But it didn't come across as being too worshipful of Celeborn? It wasn't meant to be, but I can see that it might have come across that way?
Poor old Galadriel is getting a taste of what Angrod was complaining about last chapter - falling between two stools. But it's worse for her because she's become so Sindarin over the past few hundred years :) I'm sure you know my heretical theory about how she should be considered a Teleri with some Noldor blood, and not the other way round ;)
Anyway. I am really relieved that it came across OK. As you say, it's Elu's power, Celeborn is just his King's spokesman at this point. Fingolfin will be tougher to impress than stable-hands and fishermen ;)
How's 'Deific Flame' coming on?
Ms. Whatsit
· 5 April 2004
· Chapter 15
Oh, yay, this story is back! I think I may have reviewed before under a different pen-name.
Anyway, it was good to see Celeborn and Thingol using their influence with the Sindar for the good. And Galadriel needed to see that, I think--to see that Celeborn and the other "dark elves" had real power that could easily be directed against the Noldor if they were vindictive enough. It was also nice to see Celeborn described as princely by Galadriel and just generally get respect from her.
And now I want to see the meeting between Celeborn and Fingolfin, and between Celeborn and Galadriel. Should be interesting.
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Ms.Whatsit :) Yup, we had a hiatus on this story while I finished Battle of the Golden Wood, but I'm back on this one now.
This whole exercise of trying to see the 1st Age from the Sindar perspective has been very interesting in terms of seeing the real power that the Sindar had but presumably chose not to use. And suddenly it makes a lot more sense out of what power-mad-Galadriel sees in Celeborn. He may not have the armies and military might of the Noldor but what he does have is a natural authority over the elves of Middle earth through his kinship with Thingol.
And yes, next chapter Celeborn and Fingolfin meet, and we get a bit of resolution on the C+G thing. I hope.
Thanks again!
Marnie :-)
layangabi
· 5 April 2004
· Chapter 14
How are you going to get them back together *indeed.* I've been waiting for this moment, and it was beautiful, and crushing. And amid my heartbreak for Thingol, Luthien, Melian, Celeborn and Galadriel, is some grim satisfaction that the Noldor *finally* have their arrogance thrown back at them and get knocked off their gilded pedestel in one kingly sweep. (Go Thingol! *waves Sindar flag*)It's a disturbing thought, but the sense I got from their snobbery, *Angrod's*, in particular, is to assuage their own guilt in the slaying of their kin in Aman. They knew they couldn't hide their guilt from them forever, but the Sindar who welcome them and Teleri they killed are inferior to the Noldor anyway, so doesn't that make their guilt less? (can you tell I'm particularly annoyed with Angrod?)
OT: There's one thing I *strongly* disagree with, and that's Celeborn's judgement that Angrod annoys him because he's far too much like him. I...I...I... I have a hard time seeing how that arrogant, strutting, ridiculous little peacock is anything *remotely* like Celeborn!
Sorry, somewhere this review turned into a rant. But what can I say other than what everyone else said, that this was powerful, made my heart break?
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Layangabi! This whole story was started because of the endless amount of 'awesome Noldor go and impress the natives' fics out there, and I felt it was about time someone told the story from the Sindar POV. Here are all these invaders coming over here, taking over their land, talking funny, and looking down on them. I'm amazed at how forbearing they were!
I'm sure you're right that part of the reason for the Noldor's unshakeable sense that they're better than the Sindar is guilt. That's certainly why the children of Finarfin are less than comfortable in Doriath.
As for Angrod, what Celeborn is recognising in him is his tendancy to blurt out unpalatable truths at the worst of times. A kind of rudeness and lack of tact that arises (in both of them) from their innate honesty, combined with a certain lack of empathy for other people. (It's the kind of thing that makes Celeborn - later in his career - go 'why did the old fool go to Moria in the first place? What kind of a stupid decision was that?' in front of a bunch of people who are visibly grieving for Gandalf.)
More Sindar flag waving next chapter, and the one after. Chapter 16 should also, I hope, reach some kind of a resolution on the C+G romance front!
Thanks again!
Karri
· 26 March 2004
· Chapter 14
*sniffle* Oh, the tangled web of love and war. A beautiful chapter, Marnie!
Author's reply
Thanks, Karri! Now... how do I get them back together again after that? I have *no idea* :) Glad you're enjoying it!
Portia
· 26 March 2004
· Chapter 14
Oh, what a wonderful story! I'm rather a fan of the Sindarin Elves in general, and I like Celeborn/Galadriel a lot, and I love the way you're handling them. In this chapter it was nice to see Tough!Luthien (and I like Daeron a lot, poor guy). And the ending was fabulous--Thingol was really quite merciful, all things considered. What a horrible sense of betrayal for Celeborn to have, especially when Galadriel and Finrod said that *he* was tainted with darkness! Celeborn imagining blood in Galadriel's hair was a nicely dark touch. This is not a normal marriage at all.
Author's reply
Thanks, Portia! Yay - the more Sindar fans there are, the better, and if that includes being a fan of Celeborn then wow! Brilliant! (He doesn't have many, poor lad!)
Thingol *was* surprisingly merciful, wasn't he? I think he was basically a good bloke with a bit of a temper, particularly when dealing with people of other species. He might have been inclined to mouth off, perhaps, but usually he acted more kindly than he talked.
And no, nothing about Celeborn and Galadriel's relationship seems to be particularly easy :)
Thanks again!
Sphinx
· 26 March 2004
· Chapter 14
Oh, my.
I certainly didnt expect this particular situation to arise. Not so soon, anyway. :) And especially not after the pleasantness of the last chapter.
But what a chapter this was. Marnie, I'm certainly not complaining.
More, more, more.
The pacing really worked here. From the antagonism of the Macho Guys, to Galadriel's very in-your-face repsonse, which is so, so typical of her. I dont know why on earth you say you dont like her, because you write her so very well. ;)
The little debate with Finrod was one of my favourite parts. Here, I felt, were two people who had the measure of each other, and knew the subtleties involved in winning an argument. I've always liked Finrod - he's been a semi Muse - and it is his character-sketch that you adhere to canon the most.
And I felt for Celeborn so much in the end. The anger, the betrayal, the helplessness he feels when she looks at him - wow.
I will not stop prodding. Especially not when the results are so great. :)
Coriel
· 25 March 2004
· Chapter 14
Again, simply amazing.
Your characterizations are unbelievably real and natural, and I especially liked Luthien's powerful appearance. The dirty laundry had to come out sometime, and I love the way you've fleshed out the scene from Silmarillion.
I really feel for these two. At this rate, they're going to have a rough life together!
Author's reply
Thanks, Coriel! Luthien needs the occasional spark of godliness, I think, to remind people this is the same girl who takes on Morgoth and wins :) And it was amazing to try and stick to the Silmarillion dialogue (paraphrased though it was). It really brought it home to me how downright devious and unworthy Finrod's words were to Thingol. No wonder the Sindar were less than impressed!
As for Celeborn and Galadriel, it's a wonder they *ever* got together!
Coriel
· 14 March 2004
· Chapter 7
Feanor would have squirmed in Mandos to see her freely give Gimli THREE strands. :D
Coriel
· 12 March 2004
· Chapter 10
Here is just what makes your stories so darn good. :) This detail is amazing! I manage to scrape up enough to put on a page, but I really don't know the first thing about fishing (much less cooking it afterward), weaving, swordplay, or the many singular attributes of different kinds of wood! Did you know all this already, or did you do a bit of research first? I wish we had better libraries around here.
Your metaphors are brilliant, by the way. But poor Celeborn doesn't seem to be given yet the regard he deserves as one of those who came "near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm."
(PS, I'm really starting to wonder about this, since we both independently gave Eldarion's son the same name, AND gave Celeborn and Thranduil the same particular eyes. And it is not as though dark evergreen was a popular color in Tolkien. More than coincidence, perhaps? ^_^ Or is it just that Providence has a sense of humor?)
Coriel
· 12 March 2004
· Chapter 6
Here I pause for a moment from my avid reading to say again that you are amazing. I have never read a more vivid fic, with such a firm grasp on so many different characters.
Anyway, here I go again . . . :)
Elemmire
· 6 March 2004
· Chapter 13
Ohhhhhhhh! More, more, more please...I beg you?
:),
Elemmire
Sphinx
· 6 March 2004
· Chapter 13
Oh, my.
You know, *this* was the reason I’ve been prodding you towards this story for all this time. *grins*
There is a sense of atmosphere you create when writing, never explained, but always there. The revelry in Doriath, the exultation of Celeborn as he dances, Galadriel’s laughter – was wonderful. Calandil’s sly goad into making Celeborn dance was so cute, and the disapproval of Angrod and Co was done so well. I can just imagine them standing there, polite sneers on faces, probably thinking that there are better behaved floor mice in Aman.
*cheers as Celeborn wallops Angrod*
Do not, not under *any* circumstances shorten this story. I’ll make Feanor come after you with a specially designed hachet. And you cant possibly leave this story at such a cliffie, and make us wait ages for the next! So glad to see this story here.
Lovely birthday present. Thank you. *hugs*
And if I am permitted…..*prod*
*ducks and runs*
Elvenesse
· 5 March 2004
· Chapter 1: Part One: The Tale of Celeborn and Galadriel
I really like how you write Celeborn, you always manage to capture his character perfectly (or has he captured you?). It seems that Celeborn and dwarves never manage to get alone well, not surprising really. It's nice to see Daeron as a person, rather than as the jealous elf that betrayed Lúthien.
Bejai
· 5 March 2004
· Chapter 13
Oh, I'm delighted to see that you're continuing this story! You are just a writing machine, you know that? Barely a week or two since the end of BotGW, and you've got an update for us here.
Loved Celeborn trying to convince Daeron to proclaim his love for Luthien. He's got that annoying, cheerful helpfulness of people radiantly in love: now everyone must be in love! Reminds me of every time my friends get engaged, and want to hook me up with their fiance's cousin's roommate's best friend. I, on the other hand, want to knock them unconscious with a large stick. Interesting, though, to think about what might have happened is Daeron had spoken, and Luthien had accepted him. How much different so many things could have been for Doriath! And a lot of other things too. The whole Silm history might have been changed if he had found the courage to speak.
Loved this: "But when the Green Folk had at last drifted into Beleriand they had reintroduced the more basic form - a spinning, leaping, pulse-quickening, endurance test of a dance, ideally performed drunk, with uproar and great merriment," and the picture of Elu and Melian spinning in the crowd. And the disapproval of the Noldor. How very like them.
"Upborn by the collective energy of those who remained, Celeborn spread his arms and laughed in delight, leaping like a stag." Those are always amazing moments -- when the sheer energy of the people around you carry you. It is so hard to describe, and so real.
And then you write an absolutely seductive, passionate, heart-pounded moment between Celeborn and Galadriel. The maddness of love, the fire of desire -- and a moment of wonder in one another. Oh, Marnie, I don't know how you do it, but you manage to paint the emotions. What a moment! Loved that Galadriel found something to cherish in him at that moment. A profound moment for both of them. The beginning of what will become the longest lasting relationship in Middle Earth -- a somewhat painful scene for your readers just off the end of BotGW. It was extrordinary -- the passion of the elves.
""Hmn," said Finrod, chidingly, though his face softened at Celeborn's dazed look, "You could have picked a better way than this to announce your intentions toward our sister."" Oops. Busted! :)
Wonderful, wonderful chapter. So good to see them in a time of happiness, so good to see them young and free. Their love in later days is beautiful and deep, but their love now absolutely firey -- and a lot of fun.
Karri
· 5 March 2004
· Chapter 13
Oi! I love this story. Glad to see it here! :-) It brings alive so many of the Silm character amazingly -- beyong the exquisite job is does with Celeborn and Galadriel. And, of course, I appreciate that it doesn't represent the Sindar as inferior and the Noldor as perfect, but gives greater depths and roundness to both kindred. A wonderful fic, Marnie. Thanks for taking the time to put it on SoA.