Hunting by Nilmandra

Reviews (129)

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websterans · 30 March 2004 · Chapter 10: Warriors at Play

I love the picture of elves at play that you put forth here. It really matches with my image of them, powerful, good people, valueing their children deeply, merry, playful, and yet wise, fearing the darkness and yet loving middle-earth beyond measure, feeling a bond with their home through long ages.

Author's reply

Oh, that was a lovely description, Websterans. What a great summary of the wood elves, and yes, exactly what I was hoping to convey, although you said it more eloquently.

carrie · 30 March 2004 · Chapter 10: Warriors at Play

This is another wonderful chapter, so full of warmth. I thought that the competition was so much fun and as I was rooting for Elladan I am extremely pleased that not only did his team win, but that he got to grind Sadron's face in the dirt at the same time!! This tale very much has a kind of bitter sweet feel to it I think; I find that although it is full of warmth, fun and love you are reading in the knowledge of what comes later and that inevitably I think colours my reading of it, especially wih the references you make towards the twins mother and so on and so forth, it feels very much like the last sunshine before the storm really hits. I loved the scenes between the twins in this especially the later one, when Elrohir braided his brother's hair and gave him his hair clasps, I must say it made me eyes well up, it is astonishing at how much emotion you can manage to get into one small paragraph!!! looking forward to the next as always Carrie

Author's reply

You are right, Carrie, about this story being bittersweet. I admit it was intentional - for soon Imladris will feel the affects of shadow in a very personal way. I am glad the twins have each other, but my heart absolutely breaks for Elrond at being without Celebrian for all those years and then losing Arwen forever to Luthien's choice.

mistry89 · 30 March 2004 · Chapter 10: Warriors at Play

Great slice of life chapter, thank you. And this is lovely: "Where each twin usually wore four, now each had two," I get all sappy when I hear that silly old song "Two Little Boys", and this reminded me (all too clearly) of the song .. *sniff*

Author's reply

Oh, I don't know that song, but I did like Elrohir doing that. He is so sensitive - and always makes things right. I am glad you liked it.

Karri · 29 March 2004 · Chapter 10: Warriors at Play

LOL! It was almost 'toss the elfling', eh. ;-) That was a fun chapter! I enjoyed it very much. :-D I also enjoyed the serious touches --- Legolas upset by Lathron's capture, and Elrohir comforting Lathron as he thought about his mother. Nicely done!

Author's reply

I am glad you liked it - someone just reminded me of your squirrel in Squirrels and Mudpuddles. I hadn't been thinking of him when I wrote this, but we are influenced from many places and you had a great squirrel. Fortunately, this one was willing to be helpful!

The Karenator · 29 March 2004 · Chapter 10: Warriors at Play

Nilmandra, What a delightful chapter. If Legolas were any cuter, he could stop the shadow with his infectious giggle. The scene where he was 'the clue' was great. What a trusting little fellow to jump out of the tree right into Elladan's arms. Good thing Elladan was paying attention. Buzzing elfing alert! I'm glad the twins are back to normal. That's nice to see..not that I was too worried. I don't think there's anything that could separate them for long. The games were wonderful. What a good imagination you have. I wouldn't have been able to come up with much more than pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey. It was such fun to read. Well...and Sadron got a face full of dirt and grass. Payback can be dirty. :>) The ending with Thranduil was nicely done. This was my favorite line: "Thranduil set him on a stool near the table almost reluctantly, for he enjoyed having an elfling to hold as he moved among his people." Ah...such a good ada. It brought such a good visual to me as I read it. I really enjoyed this upbeat and fun chapter. I'm looking forward to the next chapter. That wasn't the end, was it? I'm not finished with this story yet...I hope you'll cooperate, my sweet adorable child. :>) Karen

Author's reply

I'm afraid my sweet, adorable alter ego has fled, and Nilmandra the cruel has surfaced to end this story. It was great fun to write, just a slice of everyday life with our wood elves and Imladris elves. I had a lot more ideas for the games, but I'll save them for another story and another get together. Thanks for the review!

Amlee · 29 March 2004 · Chapter 10: Warriors at Play

Another great chapter!!! So few see Thranduil as a caring and loving father. It's great to read a story that see's him that way. Might I hint for you to do a young Estel story in the future?! *hint*hint*

Author's reply

Young Estel is tentatively planned for History Lessons III - and someone suggested Legolas show up during that time. That might be great fun :-) I think Thranduil had to be a good father - the Legolas we see in the books an movies didn't come from some wildly dysfunctional home. And Tolkien meant for elves to love and value their children - and I believe Thranduil did. Thanks for commenting :D

daw the minstrel · 29 March 2004 · Chapter 10: Warriors at Play

Yay for Elladan! I loved seeing these warriors at rough play with one another. You could see their affection in their teasing. Legolas is certainly growing up in a society that will teach him how to cope with hard things at the same time it supports him with love.

Author's reply

Ack, can you see how far behind I am? You are very right in your assessment of the games they play in this society - everything they do is preparation for something - and they live in dangerous times so they prepare their dangerous for a dangerous world. Thanks for all your help with this story.

LKK · 25 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

Fun games!! Legolas may adore his new look-a-like friends, but they should not go so far as to beat his big brother! Quick thinking on Glorfindel's part to perk up the little prince's spirits. Even the games serve as a chance to teach Legolas --- guests should be treated nicely. So it's "acceptable" for Elladan to win along with Bregolas this time. LOL So glad to see the twins at peace with each other again. I love the fact that while Elrohir might easily forgive Elladan, he's not above exactly some brotherly revenge. Good for him! Looking forward to the upcoming afternoon fun! :-)

Author's reply

Its fun to imagine how warriors might play :D Hopefully the games will be fun. Elrohir is sweet but devious, I think. The twins are fun to write, because so little is known, you can make them into whatever you want. I do think I need to have a young adult Legolas visit Imladris at some point. Thanks for commenting!

Karri · 23 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

A lovely chapter, Nilm. Glorfindel's mediation was skillfully done. Elladan's method of reconciling with his twin was touching. Legolas's reaction to Bregolas's lack of a win was adorable -- the poor elfling, Legolas has him set on a rather high pedestal. The hint of defensiveness and fierce competitiveness at the end between Glorfindel and Thranduil was entertaining, as well. And I adored that wee Legolas liked making his father laugh.

Author's reply

Thanks, Karri :-) Glorfindel is still preening from all the compliments he has gotten this chapter. I love how Legolas adores his older brother - the innocence of children is great. Thanks for the review :-)

FirstMate · 22 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

I don't typically gush, but I absolutely loved this chapter! You hit just the right note with all your characters...a home run! Legolas was adorable, from waking up Elrohir to pouting when his brother didn't win. Thranduil was the proud papa, without being overbearing. Glorfindel was a wise tutor and also showed just how much he care for "his" boys. And the twins themselves...well, Elrohir was cute when he forgave Elladan but still was thinking of a way to exact his own form of revenge and Elladan proved himself a formidable opponent as a warrior, but also humble enough to realize when he'd made a mistake. A truly great chapter!

Author's reply

Oh, please, gush all you want! Something about this chapter apparently did appeal, and I am glad for it. I was afraid all of Elladan's introspection might be too much. Thanks for your nice words - I really do appreciate them.

mistry89 · 22 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

This is lovely (the irony is that I've just left a similarly-toned review for a story at the "other" side of LOTR, Legolas back in Mirkwood), the difficulties between the twins, the rough edged between the Imladris and Mirkwood elves, the competition, the opportunity for Elladan to learn more (and therefore become perhaps a little more tolerant) of the lives of elves of Mirkwood, and of course, our little friend, are very clear. I can see the clearing, the gossiping groups, the bright eyes, and feel the excitement and anticipation. A nice bit of foreshadowing - a trip to Imladris in Legolas's future, is that to eventuate before the events of LOTR? It seems to me that Elladan has learned the most in this chapter, about other elves, about his brother, and perhaps himself. That said, it felt as if "all" thae characters had some contribution to make, and you have a fairly large cast to juggle! My favourite character remains Legolas, and his breathing/huffing to waken the adult is exactly what my son did as a toddler, it was always accompanied by an intense stare, and always worked. Recently it seems that every story I read in fan fiction is fabulous, long may this run last. Thank you for sharing.

Author's reply

I would love to write from Legolas's perspective when he visits Imladris for the first time - how that must appear to an elf who has grown up with shadow and dangers all around in a more rustic setting! Elladan has learned a lot - and so has Elrohir, but in my world Elrohir is a little more perceptive. Elladan, on the other hand, is less so, but when he 'sees' it changes his whole world. Since I don't have children, I love it when a parent tells me their child did something just like I wrote. I begin to wonder about my own level of maturity when I think so much like a child *grin*. Thanks for the review!

eokat · 22 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

Another lovely chapter, Nilmandra. Loved the closeness of the twins. It was nice to see how the Imladris elves realised that though they are the same, they could not lead such different lives, they are after all under the protection of the ring. Legolas not understanding a political draw, and having a little sulk about it. And all the warriors, mighty as they are, are still no match for an irate female.Loved that. Eokat.

Author's reply

Someone has reminded I have left an irate Celebrian on the banks of the Hoarwell, separated from her injured children, in HLII. I plead guilty and would hate to be any of the warriors she reduces to their knees with her glares! Thanks for the nice words!

The Karenator · 21 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

You did a nice job of resolving the tension between the twins. Glorfindel is very wise in his counsel. His words to Elladan did not give answers to the hot-headed twin, but required him to ask these questions of himself. Smooth. I especially like what Glorfindel told Elrohir about allowing Elladan to apologize. Sometimes the words have to be spoken to achieve the desired results and for healing to take place. Another wise move on the old balrog slayer's part. Legolas is so cute, I just want to pinch his cheek. Swinging along between the two 'big Elves' was so kidlike. I love how patient and careful all the adults are with the elflings in your story. I don't get the feeling that it's just because Legolas is a prince of the realm, but they are this tender with all the little guys. For them, teaching is done with a great deal of love and patience. A good rule of thumb, I think. The games were exciting, but you pulled off a genius move with the draw between Bregolas and Elladan. Their adas have taught them well. Looking forward to more. Karen

Author's reply

I will have you know the Golden One has been preening since he read your words. He is so wise, so very wise (he insists he is merely agreeing with you). I am glad you like the way the adults in my stories interact with elflings. That has been a very conscious decision to emulate what Tolkien may have intended by giving elflings an extended childhood along with advanced early development. Thanks for your review! I do appreciate it :-)

Melje · 21 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

So the twins are friends again, at last! I love it when you describe them sleeping huddled together, like hobbits. Elrohir is really too sweet for his own good. I can’t believe he was ready to forgive Elladan without even knowing what had made him angry in the first place. “Whatever was bothering him seems to have passed”. I know their bond is so strong that words are often unneeded, but they should learn to talk more about their feelings, otherwise episodes like this are going to happen again and again. So funny when he showed his mischevious side and said he’s going to have his brother wash all the dishes on the journey home! I hate washing the dishes and there’s a pile of dirty plates and pots in my sink, so I really feel for Elladan. I’m a bit surprised about Elladan not knowing what happened to Legolas as a baby. Surely the circumstances of the death of the Queen and the Prince of Mirkwood, and the disappearance of her baby son, would be known in Imladris? Bregolas seem to want to keep it a secret, even when Elladan brushes the subject and asks how come Tinania is such a good shot at her young age. Why?? I found so sad the part about Celebrian learning to defend herself. I can only imagine how her family must have felt when it all turned out to be to no avail, and I bet Elladan was the one who took it the hardest. I’m sure he never forgave himself for not having been able to spare her mother the ordeal. With the way you’re fleshing up the twins’ characters, It looks likely to me that Elladan was really the one who decided to go on their quest agains the Orcs, and he talked Elrohir into it, or maybe Elrohir followed him only to protect him. Oh, you mentioned that Legolas was supposed to help me with the flags and banners to cheer for Elladan, but I’m afraid that he was rather trying to boycott me, instead. I strongly suspect he’s really hoping for the other team to win.

Author's reply

LOL! Well, Legolas now has to determine which team he will cheer for in the afternoon competition. It might be Elladan's team, and then he will be there helping you :D I actually have thought a lot about how much communication there was (or was not, as the case may be) between the elven realms. There appeared to be official communications, but I am not sure how personal it would get. At least in my mind, the king of the Woodland Realm has to always portray strength, as he does not have a ring to protect his people. I don't think they would admit the details of what happened to them to just anyone, for the pain is still too recent. For some reason, I think the Silvan elves (and their King) would be rather tight lipped about his pain or anything that would make him appear weak. They appeared to be very private. At the end of Valar, I had Elrond ask why he did not know the story of little Legolas- and his own conclusion was that by the time the pain of the event had receded enough where Thranduil might have occasion to share details, Imladris 'lost' its Lady and was consumed with its own grief. So, beyond elves sailing west and passing through Imladris, or White Council meetings, I don't see the wood elves having a lot to do with the other elves. Just my interpretation though, for purposes of my stories, and not necessarily right. I enjoy stories where they kingdoms are good friends too. As for the twins, don't worry. They will talk. Elrohir was just relieved that whatever was bugging Elladan had passed. Sweet and gentle Elrohir is no dummy - he just handles Elladan in his own way :D

sofia · 21 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

really good chapter. I love seeing the fatherly side of Thranduil.

Author's reply

Thanks, Sofia. I think Thranduil is a great father, at least in my world!

rgbj · 21 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

Oh good another chapter. I love your OCs and your take on the twins/Imladris elves. Also the Woodland King but to me this series is little Legolas all the way. Poor Elrohir. Hindsight is 20/20. We can't always foresee how our intentions are going to be viewed by those closest to us. They wouldn't be siblings if they didn't have squabbles. Glorfindel is just invaluable to the Peredhil family. Using such wisdom to bring Elladan to his elven senses. He got to the heart of the matter. Why isn't Elladan angry to Glorfindel? He hurt Elrohir much more seriously and with much less cause. Because of love. Just enjoy the wood elves for what and who they are but don't hurt their little prince. He is untouchable. They don't know why but we do. I once woke up with my border collie breathing into my face and eye to eye with me. I almost had a heart attack. Glad Elrohir has better abilities than I do. He would have been on the ceiling screaming if he were anything like me. Even without words he could feel the bond and the apology. That was nice. Now to work. Lathron needs Legolas and Elrohir to help him and don't forget your sword and bow. In Mirkwood if you are unarmed you are naked. Here we have the elfling skipping along and chatter, chatter, chatter. Why do I find that image so adorable. Elrohir learns that even elflings carry daggers in Mirkwood. He is getting a lot of insight on how those without a protective ring have to live. So Elrohir had a little plan for Elladan all along. He may be sweet and forgiving but he is definitely not stupid. I loved the archery competition. We got to see Tinania, Meren and Bellion. That was such a treat and Tinania and Meren did good. I enjoyed your explanation about female warriors. This is a very sensible way to handle things. All females have to know how to protect themselves in Mirkwood. But, there is always a but, with the low birthrate that elves have you cannot endanger the females. After they have raised their elflings or if they never find their bondmate then they would make fierce warriors. No one should get between a female and her young. No matter how old the young are. Lathron and Glorfindel gave good advice. The two comabatants gave each other a good fight, the crowd was pleased and the honor of both realms was upheld. The only one not totally sold on this outcome was the elfling. No he wasn't satisfied at all. It was only acceptable for Elladan to win, but as he was a guest Legolas will cooperate. More laughter. The elfing is very good at making his elders meerry. The inclusion of Arwen and Celebrian was a little painful. I am sure they both are very capable but sometimes even that is just not enough. Lovely chapter. I am really enjoying the interaction of the twins and Legolas. When he gets older and gets to go to Imladris it sounds as if he will have a lot on his plate. Maybe Elladan feels he will be able to get the best of him then. Gracious I hope he doesn't hold a grudge that long. The twins got a lot of insight about how wood elves feel, behave and what a tough life they lead. Yet they are merry and full of fun and games none the less. Thank you for the update.

Author's reply

Thank you, rgbj - you always sum up so nicely the high points, it makes me glad to know they match what I think were the high points! I think Elladan's grudge will be settled before he leaves these woods, but he will remember a certain elfling with fondness. It will be funny to think of what Legolas will remember of the twins next time he sees them. :D

Elena Tiriel · 20 March 2004 · Chapter 8: Challenges

Hi Nilmandra, I am enjoying this story tremendously! A lot of my favorite spots have been mentioned already by other reviewers, but I'd like to highlight another: In this chapter, especially, I was struck by just how extraordinarily perceptive and empathetic Lathron is -- not just to Legolas, but to the twins, as well. His gift really shone in this chapter. And I thought it was so perfectly in-character that he preferred to watch the contest rather than participate -- a complex person but a reluctant (though skillful) warrior, like Faramir. Thank you for bestowing upon us the great gift of your writing! - Barbara

Author's reply

Thanks, Barbara. I am going to shamelessly admit to being in love with Lathron, and you are right to see characteristics of Faramir in him. Lathron is complex, and frankly, I think he stays in middle-earth because of Legolas and his family. He is personally ready for the peace of the west. :(

carrie · 20 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

Just a quick review as it is half past midnight and I have a long overdue essay to finnish tomorrow but I had to read this before I went to bed. This is my first review of any of your stories, of which I am very ashamed, but eye operations and the beginning of a Masters degree have kept me appropriately detained; but I love your stories, you write so beautifully that I don't think I have words adequate to express it actually. I love your little Legolas, and have adored your take on the twins since the first 'History Lessons'; you manage to capture so many different emotions in each chapter and every character, from those we are familiar with, to those of your own creation are so well developed and thought-out that they fit as perfectly within Tolkie's canon as if they have always been there and actually, this *is* what happened. I am so pleased with this chapter to see the twin's reconciled with the help of the oh-so-wise Glorfindel of course, in whom, by the way, you have created the most consumate tutor, mentor and most importantly, friend; and Elrohir waking to find Legolas so close was one of the cutest things I have ever read. Your Legolas is adorable and the relationship with his family is exsqusite. At the same time though I had the briefest pang at Ellandan's thought of not wanting Arwen or Celebrian to be tainted by evil - if only we did't know what was coming!! I loved the conclusion of the tournament, nice, even and as is pointed out, acceptably politica, and I can just imagine what will happen when Legolas gets to Imladris! Another wonderful chapter and I can go to bed with the usual nice warm, cozy feeling that this story gives me. I very much look forward to the next. Carrie (who's just realised this wasn't so short after all !!)

Author's reply

Thank you, and welcome Carrie! If these stories leave you feeling warm and cozy, then I am thrilled. I like to write about 'everyday life' - occasionally exciting and mostly mundane. The relationships between the characters are what make it interesting. Thank you for the not-so-short review!

rikwen · 20 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

This was a great chapter. It had some soft moments like where Elladan says he's sorry to Elrohir without words when he holds him in the night. There are funny moments where Elladan is asking if elleths also spared. I wonder what he would have done if he had had to fight one. There are those moments when one goes *awww*. Tinania is really shaping up into a great archer. After having to learn in order to keep everyone in the lost party alive it is good that she is loved and well respected among the warriors. Glorfindel as mentor and father figure to the twins is well done without being either too preachy or too sugary. Legolas is also a sweet elfling in this chapter. He wants to grow up and have a sword but still enjoys swinging between two grownups as they are walking. And waking up to someone blowing air in your face! Laughter. Finally Bregolas and Elladan both acknowledging that they are even and having Legolas worry because his brother didn't win was very real to life. I have enjoyed this entire series of stories. Your development of Legolas as a young elfling and his immediate and extended family is realistic and it makes me think that these would be great elves to meet.

Author's reply

Thanks, Rikwen - I like what Tolkien said about these elves - they are good people. I am glad you find the characters interesting and the stories enjoyable - that is very nice for an author to hear!

daw the minstrel · 20 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

I thought the contests were fun for various reasons. I liked the way you used the occasion to bring out the differences between Mirkwood and Rivendell. Elladan is so startled. I supposed that Bregolas might feel that way on the twins' home territory too, but Elladan learns how much he takes for granted. I liked the part about the female warriors in Mirkwood. That explanation was believable to me, and even had historical roots in the Last Alliance. I laughed when Bregolas and Elladan were each complaining about what would happen if they won, and Thranduil's and Glordfindel's appraisals of their "sons" was wonderful to hear. And of course, I loved little Legolas, sure that his brother is the best and all excited about the games.

Author's reply

It would be fun to bring Mirkwood elves to Rivendell and show the differences through their eyes. You already did a nice job of that in a Question of Duty :D

Jay of Lasgalen · 20 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

There were so many things I lked about this chapter, Nilmandra! I'm glad that Elladan explained just why he was angry with Elrohir - I have to admit I wasn't too sure. I liked the way he slept with Elrohir that night - and there are few writers who could write that scene without it sounding either slashy or twee - well done! I love the way Elrohir is not *quite* so forgiving as everyone thinks - he will make the most of Elladan's guilt! The part about Celebrian being able to fight, but Elladan hoping she would never have to was so sad - her skills didn't do her any good in the end after all. Jay

Author's reply

I was thinking about Celebrian - someday I might write my own version of that story. Perhaps her skills did help - maybe she or someone else in the party did not die due to her skills. I am still figuring that one out! And Elrohir is sneaky, isn't he?

Amlee · 20 March 2004 · Chapter 9: Win, Lose, Draw

Great chapter! I love the loyalty between the brothers. Can't wait for the next chapter. I do have to ask when do you plan to update History Lessons: The Second Age? That to is a great story!

Author's reply

Hi Amlee - HLII will be continuing, but with a heavy workload right now, I had to cut back to working on one story at at time. I'll finish Hunting and then move back to the other story. Thanks for asking. :-)

LKK · 18 March 2004 · Chapter 8: Challenges

Wow, Nilmandra. I always feel so edumacated after reading one of your stories. I didn't know sweet clover could even spoil, let alone what that it acted as a blood thinner. Heck! I didn't even know that clover was sweet! :-) Nice chapter. I was afraid that this story was going to end now that the Imladris elves had seen the inside of the cave palace. I'm glad there's going to be some mixing of the realms. And perhaps a chance or two for Legolas to be mischevious, not to mention a chance to be "cooperative". I feel for the twins. I'm sure they'll work things out. But it must be difficult, especially for Elrohir who doesn't seem to understand what's going on. I gotta cut this short & run! Looking forward to the next chapter! :-) LKK

Author's reply

Ten years in poison control and this is my prime way of using it now! Glad you liked it. It is fun writing the differences between the elves!

The Karenator · 17 March 2004 · Chapter 8: Challenges

Hi Nilmandra, I apologize for being so tardy in reviewing. Always be sure I'm reading your stories. I NEVER miss one of yours. I've been a bit on the overextended side with high school baseball (two sons on two separate teams) and the usual daily grind. I know...excuses, excuses! At any rate...this has been a delightful tale. Having followed Legolas since his birth and the difficult first year of his life, it's such a pleasure to see him growing into a happy secure child. I love Lathron. He seems to have an unusual sense of what Legolas needs and freely offers himself emotionally to his little brother. The family you have given our future Mirkwood archer is just wonderful. The Twins have been a nice addition into this story. Glorfindel, too. You built the tension well while the twins were in pursuit of the orcs, all the while, the readers knowing that there was an elfling out in the woods. All your characters have such distinct personalities. There is nothing generic about them at all. Pat yourself on the back, madam. Wonderful Elves, you have there. I'm interested to see how you resolve the tension between the twins. Elladan just can't get past the injuries his brother received. Elrohir telling him he did not have his permission to be angry was such a stroke of genius. It gave us a indepth look at how their relationsip works and how close they are in just one sentence. Very well done. Let the games begin! Imladris vs. Mirkwood. You go, girl! :>) Karen

Author's reply

Thanks, Karen. The games have begun! Sometimes the best resolution is a draw, but I am not sure my fierce Elladan sees it that way!

eokat · 14 March 2004 · Chapter 8: Challenges

Another lovely chapter, Nilmandra. I like the description of Glorfindel shining with the light of Valinor and others flock to him as moths round a flame. Beautiful expression. I feel the Sadron and Elladan will be fierce rivals in the forthcoming games and that Elladan will come to terms with his grief over his fierce protective brother mode. Look forward to the next. Eokat.

Author's reply

Thanks, Eokat. Glorfindel is helping Elladan work all this out even as I write this. Poor twins - this just proved they are never too old to experience new things!