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Moving Apart  by Marnie 19 Review(s)
purrlinReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/16/2005
Ah! The Valar work in mysterious ways!

Congratulations! This is one of the best political debates I've ever seen. If you read each sides arguments singularly they each seem persuasive and totally acceptable. I love that you have been able to have the debate without actually taking sides yourself. I love this time period! Great souls in impossible situations and you show them all so realistically.

So if Oropher hadn't moved North then Thranduil couldn't have fought his own battles with darkness and Legolas wouldn't have been able to be were he was needed when the fellowship was formed. If Celeborn hadn't travelled to Elrond then maybe Galadriel wouldn't have followed with her daughter and the life of Elrond would have been different. If Amroth hadn't been fostered as he was then Nimrodel wouldn't have been able to affect him the way she did. If the elves hadn't split their realms then Sauron would have been able to defeat them. Maybe breaking apart is what made them able to accept that the end was in sight and that it was Man who was destined to continue the fight.

Ah those Valar! sometimes, even after all the arguments, the only answer is that some things just have to happen. (It's nice to think that Thranduil and Celeborn do become closer and that perhaps Celeborn and Thranduil close out the time of elves on Middle-Earth!)

Your story was bright and exciting! well done and I hope we see more, your ability to paint relationships both peaceful and painful is wonderful.

Thanks you!

purrlin :)

Author Reply: Many thanks for your review, Purrlin :) I thought I was mad, trying to get people to read a political debate - I wrote it mostly because it interested me. So I'm delighted to know that it interested you too. Yes, I found the arguments so persuasive that I ended up agreeing with everyone; which is a bit of a problem. I still don't know who's more right!

I hadn't thought of it in terms of fate - that's very interesting! But I am amused to find that I now know why Tolkien called Legolas a 'strange' elf, and why Celeborn gave him a longbow as a gift to replace the short-bow of Mirkwood. I love it when things fit together!

Yes, I'm glad that Thranduil and Celeborn make it up in the end... or perhaps they don't. After all, Celeborn only spends a short time in East Lorien before *he* moves away to Imladris. I hope there wasn't a repeat performance!

Thanks again!

BejaiReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/15/2005
Oh, wow, Marnie. This was breathtaking. What I liked best is that all of them had valid points. This isn't a case where the reader thinks, "oh, clear character X was wrong and pigheaded," but we can see all these equally right and irreconcilable ideas. This is going to give me a good perspective when I write the Last Alliance chapter of DF in another few chapters; I'm just so grateful to see such a nuanced version of these relationships. Nothing quite like family for being able to hurt one another. They all so obviously care for one another but just can't quite get along.

Oropher was appropriately stubborn and strong, but not crazy. (The only crazy elf, IMO, was Feanor.) Amdir was wonderfully reasonable, in a Sindar kind of way. And Celeborn ... well, your Celeborn is always perfect. Enjoyed too seeing the sons, and a glimpse into Amroth and Nimrodel's relationship, as well as the Celeborn/Amroth/Amdir dynamic.

And the end! Ah! Break my heart, why don't you?

This was such a wonderfully woven story, with so many interesting threads. I'm going to need to read it a few more times to absorb the entire picure. I don't know how it's possible, seeing as how you are one of the bright lights of the fandom, but you just keep getting better. Wow. Great story.

Author Reply: Thanks Bejai! *blush* Yes, I went into the story thinking 'well, Oropher was wrong, but he nevertheless had good reasons for what he did, so I mustn't come down too strongly on him' and the next thing I knew, he had taken the microphone and was speaking so persuasively that I was convinced that he was right, and Celeborn was just being naively idealistic because he had no other choice. Then Celeborn took the microphone, and suddenly *he* was right again... Persuasive chaps, these Sindar Lords ;)

I don't think Oropher is crazy either. Doriath was gone - what did it mean to be Sindar any more? Not much. So he chose to identify himself with the Silvan people, whose cause still could be fought with some possibility of victory.

And Nimrodel as a Nationalist Resistance leader becomes suddenly a bit more interesting than the wuss that she was ;)

I'm glad you liked the end. Celeborn wanted me to end it with the hope that they would one day come to accept each other again - but it just didn't seem right that way. Some acknowledgement that, despite their disagreements with the Noldor, both Oropher and Amdir died fighting side by side with them needed to be made, I thought.

DotReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/15/2005
Oh, Marnie. You never cease to amaze me. This was wonderful. Your obvious understanding of and passion for these characters shines through.

I’ll be the first to admit that generally any political discussions hold absolutely no interest for me so I just loved the fact that I actually understood what these elves were talking about and could really see each of their viewpoints!

You have a great gift for showing the weight of years behind these elves and a friendship forged in good times and which still does remain after times of test, without actually blatantly telling us. And it adds a certain poignancy to their words. I’ve always loved your Celeborn and I actually do feel quite bad for him here. I mean, apart from personally suffering from words spoken in bitterness and anger and the sacrifices he’s willing to make, I just think he’s in a really tough position. With the marriage he’s in he could never do as Oropher wants to do. I wonder if deep down he’d envy him. You write Oropher so fantastically well. He had to be every bit as charismatic and passionate as you make him but I particularly like that you give him sound and logical reasons for leaving. I kept finding myself nodding along when he spoke! The whole issue about the Silvan language is enormously important. I think I maybe relate to it, though, because I live in a country where people go to great lengths to retain our native language and preserve a cultural identity ;-) It certainly means too that Oropher gives his own realm something unique that will differentiate it from Lorien.

Anyway, I wish I had time to comment in more depth but I’m afraid my bed beckons after a long day! I’m really glad I read this tonight. Oh, I forgot to say that you really made Amdir come alive for me too and I just loved the two defensive and loyal sons! This was really great. :-)


Author Reply: Thanks for a great review, Dot! Yes, I was worried that the last thing anyone would want to read was a political discussion among 3 of the most obscure elves of the books. But it interested me anyway ;)

Yes, poor Celeborn - defeated, injured, browbeaten by his friends and homeless - he's not really in a good state for this discussion. But yes, in a situation where many of the survivors of Doriath blamed the Noldor for everything, his mixed marriage is a problem for him. To be fair, it's a problem for Galadriel too, and she does everything she can to fit in with his people; but on the evidence of Oropher she never quite achieves acceptance.

As for Oropher, I do think his reasons are quite sound. I found that while he was speaking I was convinced that he was completely right.. but while Celeborn was speaking I was convinced that *he* was completely right! Persuasive blokes, these Sindar :)

And I'm delighted that Amdir got his chance to shine. Poor bloke - he gets even less stories than Oropher does.

Thanks very much again!

LuineithelReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/15/2005
I am at a loss of words really. I cannot say much more, but thank you!

Oropher has been my favourite elf for a very long time now and seeing him here so wonderfully portrayed makes me beam with happiness. He is so often written as evil or plainly mad, when really he must have been an elf of reason and passion, as otherwise no-one would have followed him; let alone let him rule an entire people, who fought and died with him in front of Mordor's Gates.

The discussion was a feast of words and reasons! Really, I could not say who is right... in a way, they all might be. I love the way you stayed true to all the little details that the books give us, wonderful!

The vision at the end is breath-taking. I re-read it several times, it is so very sad, very poignant. It is so terrible you do not want to read and think about this very end, while at the same time you cannot possibly manage not to do it. Perfect!

Thank you some much again! :)

Author Reply: Thank *you*! Oropher is not exactly my favourite - as everyone knows, that would be Celeborn - but I feel that the bad press he comes in for is hugely unfair. I think it's symptomatic of the way the fandom tends to treat all of the Sindar/Silvan characters. People identify with the Noldor, who are after all very glamourous in a 'doomed but heroic' way, and therefore they feel that any character who openly dislikes the Noldor must be either bad or mad.

It comes from not taking the Sindar seriously as a people in their own right, with their own culture and history, and their own *good* reasons for doing things. Part of what I wanted to do with this fic was to show the Sindar perspective on Middle-earth politics. To show that they had perfectly valid reasons - all of them - for acting as they did.

Oropher's only real 'sin' seems to be that he didn't want to take orders from foriegners who'd previously killed his people and wiped out his civilization. I really don't see how he can be called 'irrational' because of that.

Glad you liked the fic - we Sindar supporters should stand together! :)

elliskaReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/15/2005
Wow! I love this debate. They both argued well and their motivations / feelings / experiences were expressed well. There are a few lines that I love:

"Let the Doom of the Noldor fall upon the Noldor. Exactly. I definitely see this as one of Oropher's defining beliefs--the reason why he left Lindon. It forms part of my next fic as well. I don't see him as being too arrogant to live under Gil-galad's rule or so power hungry that he was seeking his own kingdom (though that may be a part of his motivation). I see him as primarily anxious to separate himself and those he loved from the Doom of the Noldor--"To evil end shall all things come, which they begin." Exactly so. That is a very powerful curse to be associated with. And Oropher saw it's power. The Silmarils were "cursed with an oath of hatred and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber." Thingol named them, against the advice of Melian, and paid a very high price for doing so. Oropher saw the power of that curse and wanted to get away from it. I love this part.

A people's culture is their heart," Oropher frowned with frustration. "Their language is the very song of their soul. This Thingol knew, who chose to punish the Noldor by taking theirs away. But after language, then comes their works; their dress, their habits, the lore by which they live... It begins, perhaps, through teaching them to use Sindar weapons, and then what? They use the longbow to bring down more game; the forest suffers, the animals grow wary and scarce; we lose their trust, and we have to learn more Sindar ways to compensate. Until at last we are Silvan in name only. How can it profit my people to cut out their heart in order to save them?"

Wonderful! So true! I see a lot of people laugh at Thingol's edict but as a language teacher, I know the degree to which a culture is embodied in/by their language. "Song of their soul"--that describes it perfectly. To take away a conquered people's right to use their native langauge was an ancient and very cruel way to hold power of them. Thingol's edict was very powerful and Oropher sees that. And the whole ensuing argument--preserve the Silvan's way of life vs preserving their life--was excellent. I definitely see both Oropher and Thranduil having to struggle with this. Coincidently it is also a part of the next part of my fic. And your Oropher and Celeborn covered all the bases here so well.

There were many other powerful lines/arguments. Those were just my two favorites.

I love your passionate Celeborn and and Oropher. Of course they (and Thranduil and Elrond) must have had this type of fire to survive all they had seen and be such good leaders for their people.

I love these types of debates of conscience (sp?). Absolutely outstanding! Loved it.


Author Reply: Thanks for the review, Elliska! I was afraid that no one would find 3 Sindar Lords sitting down and discussing Sindar politics interesting - so I'm delighted to be proved wrong :)

Yes, I feel that Oropher had sound political reasons behind his actions. He tends to be looked down upon in fandom for being just stiff necked and prejudiced - possibly even irrational. But I don't see that. To a certain extent, in refusing to have anything to do with the Noldor, he's acting in the most cautious, most defensible way of any of them. After all, Thingol's kingdom survived all the tumult of the First Age intact, until he made the mistake of getting involved with the Noldor.

I also think that it's not widely understood that Thingol's edict was a very smart move designed to allow the Sindar people to retain their self-identity. (It's probably only because English survived the Norman Conquest that in England we still have an attachment to our Anglo-Saxon roots. And of course it's why the Welsh language has such dedicated supporters. If the Welsh people lose that, how will they know that they're not us? ;) So the issue of the Silvan people losing their language in Lorien, but not losing it in Mirkwood means that Oropher's policy has made a lasting, real difference between the two realms.

Of course Celeborn, as the proud possessor of a mixed marriage, doesn't have the luxury of choosing to have nothing to do with the Noldor. He has the more difficult task of trying to get the two races to work together without either oppressing the other. I suspect he envys Oropher the ability to walk away from it sometimes!

What's your fic called? I must go and read it :)

Thanks again!

Ms. WhatsitReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/15/2005
Oh, wow, what a wonderful fic. I'm so glad someone decided to write about Oropher and Amdir--intriguing characters, really, particularly Oropher. Considering his history he must have been charismatic, passionate, kind of irrational, and horribly stubborn. I love the comparison to Galadriel--just like Galadriel wants to use Nenya to keep Lothlorien as it is and prevent her people from "dwindling" into a "rustic folk," so Oropher wants to preserve the Silvan Elves in amber, so to speak. People change, that's the way of things--and if people want to prevent themselves from changing--well, they can't, but they can pretend to themselves that they can. But they definitely can't prevent others from changing, as Oropher and Nimrodel and Galadriel want to do.

Author Reply: Thanks for the review, Ms.Whatsit! Glad to meet someone else who's interested in the Sindar Lords :) I certainly agree with you that Oropher must have been charismatic and passionate, and I can go for stubborn too - since that seems to be a common trait in elves - but I'm not sure I'd agree with irrational. I think he has a point. The epidemics of alcoholism, despair and suicide among the Australian Aborigines, or the Native Americans, following Western cultural imperialism illustrates what *can* happen if one culture walks in and stamps out another. Add the Doom of the Noldor to that mix and I can't help but feel that it's Amdir and Celeborn who are taking the big risk, not Oropher.

But on the other hand to draw away completely, to keep yourselves seperate in a kind of apartheid... that's not right either.

It's confusing! Who'd have thought that a fantasy world could be so plagued with real problems? :)

Many thanks again!

Morwen TindomerelReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/15/2005
It occurs to me that blaming the Longbeards of Moria for the crimes of the Firebeards of Nargrod makes about as much sense as blaming the Sindar for the kinslaying.

Remember what happened to Denethor and his army! Poor Oropher is going to pay a high price for his neo-primitivism.

Yeah! Go Celeborn! "It's called life, Oropher. Growth. And though it means we lose some things we once loved, what of it? We gain others." A lot of Elves seem to have trouble with this - and not just the Amanyar - but not our Celeborn!

I think you see Elrond as more Noldo than I do but sending the the adherents of the Miridain party to him is a good idea. They really don't fit into a Sindarin or silvan realm. But that doesn't make them bad - except for the arrogance of course - why shouldn't they want to live in their own way and pursue their own interests?

Author Reply: Thanks for the review Morwen! Yes, it struck me forcibly, when Amdir disapproved of Nimrodel's blaming Amroth for the wars, that the Sindar prejudice against the dwarves was the same thing.

However it is *slightly* different, because no elf knows what it's like to be a dwarf from the inside. They can't, therefore, say with confidence that there isn't a sort of lurking timebomb of betrayal inside every dwarf - as they can with other elves. Orcs are innately evil, after all. So perhaps dwarves are innately treacherous, and the difference with the dwarves of Moria is just that it hasn't happened yet?

I think Oropher would say that the price was worth it. My problem was that these elves were all so persuasive that by the end of it I have no idea who was right. All of them, maybe.

I take Elrond to have been raised by the really uber-Noldor Maglor, so I feel that when he pledges allegiance to Gil-galad he will be mostly ignorant of his Sindar roots. And I wasn't suggesting that all the Noldor were bad - Celeborn's only taking the troublemakers away; the ones who took part in the coup, or feel that they *ought* to rule whereever they are, simply because they are Calaquendi. The ones who can get along with other people and don't have to take over are staying.

KagaReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/15/2005
'But at the thought darkness rose up and smothered him. Death filled his nostrils like water, and he heard from afar the voice of Oropher calling out from a barren land, where his bones lay in a pit beneath the moon. Agony came over him, and numbness. Reeds pierced his body like thousands of spears.

He gasped, opened his eyes and saw the curtains move in the many windows of Amroth's house and the sky like beaten gold through the door. "You will," he said, calm and sure at last. Glad that one at least was spared. "Yes. I think you will."'

Is this a vision that Amdir sees? And why one? Doesn't Thranduil counts too?

Wonderfully written story, although I can't really see Nimrodel critising Amroth; she did follow him to the sea through her heart lay in Middle Earth


Author Reply: Thanks for the review, Kaga! Yes, this is a vision Amdir sees of his and Oropher's deaths in the Last Alliance. Amdir tends to think of himself, Celeborn and Oropher as three friends. Thranduil and Amroth are the children of his friends - so they fall into a seperate category. Hence, out of the three friends who met today, only one will be left.

Strangely enough, Nimrodel *did* say all those things to Amroth - it's in Unfinished Tales; "she would not wed him. She loved him indeed...but she was of the Silvan Elves, and regretted the incoming of the Elves from the West, who (as she said) brought wars and destroyed the peace of old. She would speak only the Silvan tongue, even after it had fallen into disuse among the folk of Lorien;"

So she was something of a nationalist resistance leader - but not a tremendously successful one, since most of her countrymen seem to have been delighted to welcome Amdir and Celeborn.

SulrielReviewed Chapter: 1 on 1/15/2005
Looking across the clearing he caught Amdir's gaze, and though his words were harsh, his face spoke of concern. "I would certainly not have opened my country to their refugees as you have. Ware lest you draw their curse down on yourself! 'To evil end shall all things come, which they begin.' The Powers themselves have said it. And yes, I wish it was not so, but it is. Doom is what you welcome into your country, when you give shelter to the Kinslayers."

a wonderful portrayal of Oropher

separating a pair of hounds fighting over the same hare - all a matter of avoiding the fangs.

LMAO! Such perfect characterization.

How many times can I say it before you beta my reviews for being repetitive? I love your insight and depth of characterization. You have captured the bittersweet nuances of the Age, the temperament and the dedication of the Kings to their people and their world.





Author Reply: Thanks, Sulriel! I do feel that Oropher tends to get a raw deal in fandom too - he tends to be seen as having an irrational hatred of the Noldor. But it occurred to me that he might have damn good reasons for not wanting them around. And indeed, the survival of his kingdom 'untroubled' into the Fourth Age rather supports his policy.

And your reviews are as the rising of the stars; a delight that does not grow wearying! I'll take any amount of praise with a big grin. I'm so glad you liked it!

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